Angry Coach at Halftime

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Corndog89

He obviously aimed these comments at us in the next room with its paper-thin walls.

This all I need to know. Buh Bye!

I'd rather explain this T than explain why I didn't call it.

[Corndog89]

Thanks for all the comments, observations, and rules/casebook references. While I understand willieb's position that you don't go looking for "T"rouble, I still think we should have T'd this out-of-control coach. But I respected and listened to my much more experienced partners; both were good officials who were otherwise not reluctant to T-up deserving coaches. I called at this small town, Florida panhandle school several times over a 3 year period and never had any other similar or bad experiences...but boy, this one sure sticks with me.

[26 Year Gap]

It may simply have been a signal that his leash in the 2nd half was going to be very short if you know what I mean.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Corndog89

...but boy, this one sure sticks with me.

I've been told that that is a sure indication that the situation was not handled properly. You know it inside.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

NevadaRef has quoted a NFHS Casebook Play that deals specifically with certain electronic equipment whose use is specifically prohibited by rule. As much as much as we would like to apply this Casebook Play to the situation in the OP we cannot because it does not apply.

One could rely on the NCAA's position that if a Head Coach's inappropriate language can be heard outside of the huddle during a timeout, the game officials should penalize the Head Coach. But, I seriously doubt that the NCAA's position could be applied to the same situation in the OP if the game was played using NCAA Rules.

I have no doubt that the Head Coach knew that the game officials could hear his diatribe and that his diatribe was deliberately directed toward the game officials because of that fact. BUT, more experienced game officials were correct in not giving the Head Coach at TF under these circumstances. BESIDES, once the second half started, I am sure that, without baiting the HC, the officiating crew would have a zero tolerance,, for either coach stepping out of the coaching box.

MTD, Sr.

[PeteBooth]

Mark this OP was brought over to the baseball side as well.

So here's my question

Forget about the comments made about officials.

Suppose you heard the following:

Hey Jimmy (who is the last person on the sub list) Tommy (on the other team) is "kiliing us" I want you to "take him out"

I believe this sort of "stuff" happened at the University of Minnesota many moons ago. Can't remember the coach but it was a pretty gruesome story.

In Conclusion: You as officials hear this coach tell one of his HS players to do harm to another player on another team.

What do you do

Me: Assuming I heard a baseball coach tell one of his players to take out another player. Coach is done and report filed.

Pete Booth

[Adam]

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

Assuming I heard a baseball coach tell one of his players to take out another player. Coach is done and report filed.

Pete Booth

Me too.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

I believe this sort of "stuff" happened at the University of Minnesota many moons ago. Can't remember the coach but it was a pretty gruesome story.

The Ohio State incident from 1971? Bill Musselman was the coach and Dave Winfield was a player for the Gophers.

Assuming that's the incident to which you are referring.

[LeeBallanfant]

Originally Posted by Corndog89

...but boy, this one sure sticks with me.

This may stick with you and you only, but if you had called a T, you would have had that tag with you for the rest of your refereeing career. " Here is the ref who puts his ear next to the locker room wall and if he hears one bad thing about the officiating, he T's them."

Even if this was not the case at all, thats what the story would be.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by LeeBallanfant

This may stick with you and you only, but if you had called a T, you would have had that tag with you for the rest of your refereeing career. " Here is the ref who puts his ear next to the locker room wall and if he hears one bad thing about the officiating, he T's them."

Even if this was not the case at all, thats what the story would be.

There's quite a bit of truth to this, I'm afraid. It's impossible for us to control the impression this gives because there's no witnesses.

[tomegun]

It seems like some people are changing their opinions back and forth. Isn't it great to hear different points of view?

I wouldn't give the coach a T for this, but that coach would act like an angel for the rest of the game. We know they say these kinds of things all the time. Since I assume this sort of thing goes on all the time I would just do a report and be done with it. Coaches, at least while working in the coach capacity, are not our friends and don't necessarily care of for us at all. Part of the job.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Agreed...but now NevadaRef is going to come along and tell them they are cowards also. This could get interesting!!

I already knew how Rut would come down on this. He has a demonstrated history on this forum of taking the path of least resistance and a lack of desire to deal with unsporting behavior. He seems to want to just go with the flow. Therefore, I find it most ironic that his signature line seems to be in admiration of people who took the difficult path in order to do what they believed was right and change our society. How we live with and treat each other was important to those people. Sadly, I guess Rut is willing to enjoy the fruits of their labors, but doesn't have what it takes to do something similar when called to action or at least stand up with them. Of course, I've completely given up on him and ignore most of his posts. I already know that the character of that individual doesn't warrant any of my time.


It is the position of MTD that shocks and disappoints me.

Originally Posted by MTD Sr.

I have no doubt that the Head Coach knew that the game officials could hear his diatribe and that his diatribe was deliberately directed toward the game officials because of that fact.

How he can write that, yet advocate not levying the penalty of a technical foul against the coach completely baffles me.

I always thought of him as someone who cares about sportsmanship in the HS game and the proper conduct and manners of people. He certainly has talked of how he raised his sons in an upstanding manner on this forum. Certainly the mission statement of the NFHS of developing good citizens has to mean something to him or he wouldn't have been as involved in HS athletics as he is for as long as he has been. Therefore, it truly puzzles me that when a coach is clearly delivering the wrong message to the young men under his tutelage that he would advocate that the official not step in with a clear and firm action that the youngsters can see in contrast to the poor behavior from their supposed role model. At the HS level coaches are supposed to be teaching more than just the game, and officials clearly have a role in promoting sportsmanship. In this case, the coach isn't properly fulfilling his role as a steward of his young charges. He isn't simply criticizing the calls or performance of the officials, but with his 8 v. 5 comment is actually calling them cheaters. Furthermore, he is directly telling the youngsters on his team that those three adults are intentionally being cheating them. I don't know of a more insulting comment that a coach can make than to impugn the personal integrity of a game official. This offense, in front of the very youth for which the coach is supposed to be setting a good example, is unconscionable and calls for sterner action than just a behind the scenes filing of a report. The kids won't see the report, but they do see the action and hear the words of the coach, and that needs to be contradicted by public punishment so that the kids understand that this behavior is wrong. This situation is about doing what is right for the kids.
Lastly, two other comments.
1. I don't agree with not penalizing the coach for this offending speech, but getting him for something else in the second half. To me that fails to deal with the heart of the matter. It is akin to the federal government getting Al Capone for income tax evasion. I say penalize what should be and don't look for something else to make up for it. That's not justice or addressing the problem head on. That's skirting the issue.

2. MTD referenced the coach using inappropriate language which can be heard outside of the huddle during a time-out and wrote that it was an NCAA position. In fact, the NFHS takes the very same position. This appeared as a POE in 2004-05.

Inappropriate language. The committee is concerned about the use of inappropriate language by players, bench personnel, coaches, officials and spectators. Each group has a responsibility to the game and to each other to demonstrate civility and citizenship.
The team huddle is not a safe haven for coaches' bad language. Players are not permitted to "let off steam" by using profanity, even if it is not directed at an opponent or official. Being angry at oneself is no excuse. Officials are not exempt either. Inappropriate references to players or coaches are not acceptable. Game administrators must also pay particular attention to fans. A game ticket is not a license to abuse.

[OHBBREF]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

The team huddle is not a safe haven for coaches' bad language.

Again we are referring to something out in the open and directly under the jurisdiction of the officials ...

If the comments were made in the huddle and I heard them OH YEAH - coach has a seat belt on the bench or possibly in their bus for the ride home!

But I still say the locker room is OOB, Nun Ya, off limits, what ever, that is an admistrative officials area to deal with.

[SamIAm]

I am with Nevada. If the coach is speaking/talking/yelling with the intent of the official to hear, the coach does not get a free pass.

[refnrev]

I'm going with Rut and MTD on this one. Rut beat me to the special report and I am not starting a half with a T for something an idiot coach says in the locker room to his players. If he says to our face, WHACK! But his report card better say that "coach played very nicely with others in the second half."