Angry Coach at Halftime

[OHBBREF]

the reference is for rule 10 section 1 article 3
which specificall covers only the use of electronic media for coaching communicating with players -

Rule 10 Fouls and Penalties
SECTION 1 TEAM TECHNICAL
A team shall not:
ART. 3 . . . Use television monitoring or replay equipment or computers (other than for statistics) for coaching purposes during the game or any intermission or use a megaphone or any mechanical sounding device or any electronic transmission device at courtside for coaching purposes, or electronic equipment for voice communication with players.

where does this give you blanket authority over the lockerroom?

Cajun
I see what you are saying and yes common sense says whack them - however there is nothing in the rules that says you have the authority to do so.
That is the issue, find a way to deal with it.

But you can not tell me you are going to whack a coach if he mouths off and cusses in his locker room during his pre game speech to his team, or he says these three officials are going to homer us - it happens everytime we come here, after the referee's authority begins at the fifteen minute mark and you happen to be in the locker room and over hear it.

So if you accept the 10.1.3 case play as your authority - then you have to act here in the same manner - and in 25 years at upper levels I have never heard of a game or a half starting with a T because of a speech eminating from a locker room.

Since I figure that the odds are that neither of us will convince the others of our correctness I will take the lead and get some rules interpreters opinions as well as try to get rules editors to respond also. It may take a week or more to get the appropriate answers.

[CajunNewBlue]

This has been a very interesting series of posts.... as a father of a varsity basketball player, personally I think you should have immediately ejected him, in front of all his kids, while in the locker room... (IMHO, the locker room is NOT a sanctuary to do BAD things) and made sure that he earned at the very least a few games off to reflect on his coaching style (NFHS has zero tolerance for "bad language" as does the LHSAA)... Now, as a non-professional referee... i just dabble in the minors ... I would have whacked him... rule references be damned, as a "Coach, you know that just ain't right" should suffice... of course since he's already whacked, he's a dead man and I don't talk to dead men.
As a professional umpire "if there is such a thing...lol" I am amazed... no make that totally baffled...no, make that flabbergasted... that behavior like this is tolerated. Although "playing devils advocate here for lack of rule references" sometimes the rules don't allow/reference for such over the top, totally ridiculous behavior and good common sense must rule.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by CajunNewBlue

This has been a very interesting series of posts.... as a father of a varsity basketball player, personally I think you should have immediately ejected him, in front of all his kids, while in the locker room... (IMHO, the locker room is NOT a sanctuary to do BAD things) and made sure that he earned at the very least a few games off to reflect on his coaching style (NFHS has zero tolerance for "bad language" as does the LHSAA)... Now, as a non-professional referee... i just dabble in the minors ... I would have whacked him... rule references be damned, as a "Coach, you know that just ain't right" should suffice... of course since he's already whacked, he's a dead man and I don't talk to dead men.
As a professional umpire "if there is such a thing...lol" I am amazed... no make that totally baffled...no, make that flabbergasted... that behavior like this is tolerated. Although "playing devils advocate here for lack of rule references" sometimes the rules don't allow/reference for such over the top, totally ridiculous behavior and good common sense must rule.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Corndog89

He obviously aimed these comments at us in the next room with its paper-thin walls.

This all I need to know. Buh Bye!

I'd rather explain this T than explain why I didn't call it.

[Corndog89]

Thanks for all the comments, observations, and rules/casebook references. While I understand willieb's position that you don't go looking for "T"rouble, I still think we should have T'd this out-of-control coach. But I respected and listened to my much more experienced partners; both were good officials who were otherwise not reluctant to T-up deserving coaches. I called at this small town, Florida panhandle school several times over a 3 year period and never had any other similar or bad experiences...but boy, this one sure sticks with me.

[26 Year Gap]

It may simply have been a signal that his leash in the 2nd half was going to be very short if you know what I mean.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Corndog89

...but boy, this one sure sticks with me.

I've been told that that is a sure indication that the situation was not handled properly. You know it inside.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

NevadaRef has quoted a NFHS Casebook Play that deals specifically with certain electronic equipment whose use is specifically prohibited by rule. As much as much as we would like to apply this Casebook Play to the situation in the OP we cannot because it does not apply.

One could rely on the NCAA's position that if a Head Coach's inappropriate language can be heard outside of the huddle during a timeout, the game officials should penalize the Head Coach. But, I seriously doubt that the NCAA's position could be applied to the same situation in the OP if the game was played using NCAA Rules.

I have no doubt that the Head Coach knew that the game officials could hear his diatribe and that his diatribe was deliberately directed toward the game officials because of that fact. BUT, more experienced game officials were correct in not giving the Head Coach at TF under these circumstances. BESIDES, once the second half started, I am sure that, without baiting the HC, the officiating crew would have a zero tolerance,, for either coach stepping out of the coaching box.

MTD, Sr.

[PeteBooth]

Mark this OP was brought over to the baseball side as well.

So here's my question

Forget about the comments made about officials.

Suppose you heard the following:

Hey Jimmy (who is the last person on the sub list) Tommy (on the other team) is "kiliing us" I want you to "take him out"

I believe this sort of "stuff" happened at the University of Minnesota many moons ago. Can't remember the coach but it was a pretty gruesome story.

In Conclusion: You as officials hear this coach tell one of his HS players to do harm to another player on another team.

What do you do

Me: Assuming I heard a baseball coach tell one of his players to take out another player. Coach is done and report filed.

Pete Booth

[LeeBallanfant]

Originally Posted by Corndog89

...but boy, this one sure sticks with me.

This may stick with you and you only, but if you had called a T, you would have had that tag with you for the rest of your refereeing career. " Here is the ref who puts his ear next to the locker room wall and if he hears one bad thing about the officiating, he T's them."

Even if this was not the case at all, thats what the story would be.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by LeeBallanfant

This may stick with you and you only, but if you had called a T, you would have had that tag with you for the rest of your refereeing career. " Here is the ref who puts his ear next to the locker room wall and if he hears one bad thing about the officiating, he T's them."

Even if this was not the case at all, thats what the story would be.

There's quite a bit of truth to this, I'm afraid. It's impossible for us to control the impression this gives because there's no witnesses.

[tomegun]

It seems like some people are changing their opinions back and forth. Isn't it great to hear different points of view?

I wouldn't give the coach a T for this, but that coach would act like an angel for the rest of the game. We know they say these kinds of things all the time. Since I assume this sort of thing goes on all the time I would just do a report and be done with it. Coaches, at least while working in the coach capacity, are not our friends and don't necessarily care of for us at all. Part of the job.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Corndog89

What would you do in a similar situation? I still haven't completely resolved this one in my mind...

I would just write a "Special Report" about the incident after the game. The Special Report (same form used for all ejections) in our state is something the Principal receives as well as the AD automatically (filed online). I would rather put this in the file so that the IHSA knows about it and the school administrators know about it. The IHSA will deal with the situation without my knowledge and either direct the school to move the officials to a better location or consider this behavior when other situations come up with this coach (which you may or may not be involved in). All Special Report filings must be given a response to the IHSA Office by the person being written about. In other words, depending on the administration that hires the coach, the coach might not have a job or at the very least get suspended based on this situation and other incidents that you know nothing about. And the use of language would be the main reason this might result in some sanction.

I do not see how this necessarily falls under the rules when the action is more logistical than a clear violation of unsportsmanlike behavior. Not to say that is not an option, but for me not the best option in my opinion.

Then in the second half, the coach better be on their best behavior, because they would not get the benefit of the doubt when complaining about calls or other things going on the court.

Peace

[Ignats75]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I would just write a "Special Report" about the incident after the game. The Special Report (same form used for all ejections) in our state is something the Principal receives as well as the AD automatically (filed online). I would rather put this in the file so that the IHSA knows about it and the school administrators know about it. The IHSA will deal with the situation without my knowledge and either direct the school to move the officials to a better location or consider this behavior when other situations come up with this coach (which you may or may not be involved in). All Special Report filings must be given a response to the IHSA Office by the person being written about. In other words, depending on the administration that hires the coach, the coach might not have a job or at the very least get suspended based on this situation and other incidents that you know nothing about. And the use of language would be the main reason this might result in some sanction.

I do not see how this necessarily falls under the rules when the action is more logistical than a clear violation of unsportsmanlike behavior. Not to say that is not an option, but for me not the best option in my opinion.

Then in the second half, the coach better be on their best behavior, because they would not get the benefit of the doubt when complaining about calls or other things going on the court.

Peace

Leave it to Mr Rutledge and Mr. DeNucci to have the right handle on the situation. I would certainly be uncomfortable issuing a T for behvior that was neither directed at the crew nor on the court but instead "heard through the wall". A special report to the state seems like the right move IMHO.

[Rich]

Thinking about it some more, I would probably just leave the room and find some place to hang out for 5 minutes. Get some water, use the rest room, etc. And then file a report afterwards.

Or maybe just get the AD and have him listen in on the rant live and in person.