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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Sun Dec 21, 2008, 11:50am
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players with 4 fouls

Many gyms do not post the players number and number of fouls on the score board as they occur. As a newer guy, i don't want to foul someone out on a cheep foul, but it is hard to know the foul situation for each team.
It doesn't seem appropriate to go to the scorekeeper and ask, "who has 4 fouls" at say the start of the 4th quarter. that might appear to everyone that you could be showing favoritism to those players.

How do you experienced guys get the information you want in that senario?
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old Sun Dec 21, 2008, 11:53am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beachbum View Post
As a newer guy, I don't want to foul someone out on a cheap foul, but it is hard to know the foul situation for each team.
It doesn't seem appropriate to go to the scorekeeper and ask, "who has 4 fouls" at say the start of the 4th quarter. That might appear to everyone that you could be showing favoritism to those players.
You have just reopened Pandora's Box. Be prepared. Be very prepared.
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Old Sun Dec 21, 2008, 12:04pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beachbum View Post
Many gyms do not post the players number and number of fouls on the score board as they occur. As a newer guy, i don't want to foul someone out on a cheep foul, but it is hard to know the foul situation for each team.
It doesn't seem appropriate to go to the scorekeeper and ask, "who has 4 fouls" at say the start of the 4th quarter. that might appear to everyone that you could be showing favoritism to those players.

How do you experienced guys get the information you want in that senario?
A foul is a foul is a foul in minute one and minute 32. You and your crew must be consistent with your calls.

I personally check with the table for total foul counts 7/10 to be aware of the bonus at TO's/, etc. If the table volunteers who has foul troubles that's ok. But, generally, I know who is piling up the fouls.

Are you saying your ok giving "cheap fouls" up until a player has four and then you're gonna make sure five is a good one?
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Old Sun Dec 21, 2008, 12:07pm
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Is a "cheep foul" when a bird lands on a player, or what? Sorry, couldn't help myself. If you adjust your calling based on the number of fouls a player has, you are doing the game a big disservice.
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  #5 (permalink)  
Old Sun Dec 21, 2008, 12:18pm
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I guess the word cheep is not right. I mean a questionable foul. but I think i get your drift..just call what you see and if someone fouls out, they foul out.
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Old Sun Dec 21, 2008, 12:22pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beachbum View Post
It doesn't seem appropriate to go to the scorekeeper and ask, "who has 4 fouls" at say the start of the 4th quarter. that might appear to everyone that you could be showing favoritism to those players.
At least you're not asking about four fouls on only the star players, so you're treating every player the same. Wanting to know which of the star players had four fouls would make it a different story completely.

I know. I'm a bad boy. Just looking forward to some excitement after I come in from shoveling snow. See you guys (the generic guys, meaning guys, and gals) in an hour, or so. I can't wait to see what beachbum, and I, started. Too bad Jurassic Referee is on sabbatical.
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Old Sun Dec 21, 2008, 12:24pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beachbum View Post
I guess the word cheep is not right. I mean a questionable foul. but I think i get your drift..just call what you see and if someone fouls out, they foul out.
Beachbum, I do want to know when a player has 4 fouls...not to change anything that I am calling, but so I/we are not surprised when the table tells us someone just fouled out. To me, it's the same as knowing when the 6th team foul is called, so we aren't surprised that we are shooting the bonus on the next foul. Some people think that wanting that information has no possible use other than changing the way you are calling - they are wrong. But that has been argued on here before.
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Old Sun Dec 21, 2008, 02:29pm
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I will be the black sheep.

I think you need to be aware about who has 4 fouls. If you fouled out the only kid that can dribble the ball for that team, trouble is soon behind. It better be one heck of a foul. Game management skills still have to carry some weight in the game.
I am not saying you ignore obvious advantage gains, but preventive officiating can make the game smother.
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Old Sun Dec 21, 2008, 02:37pm
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Just had a game yesterday where 4 players fouled out. With them gone, the game cleaned up a little bit.
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Old Sun Dec 21, 2008, 02:40pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by summdawg76 View Post
I will be the black sheep.

I think you need to be aware about who has 4 fouls. If you fouled out the only kid that can dribble the ball for that team, trouble is soon behind. It better be one heck of a foul. Game management skills still have to carry some weight in the game.
I am not saying you ignore obvious advantage gains, but preventive officiating can make the game smother.
Gotta tell ya' - this is so wrong I hardly know where to start. First of all, we don't "foul anyone out". The players commit the fouls, we only point them out when they happen. If "the only player who can dribble the ball for a team" fouls out, why is that the official's concern? If he was so valuable to that team, he shouldn't have committed so many fouls. The responsibility is his, not ours. And saying it "better be one heck of a foul" is ridiculous. It "better meet" exactly the same standard you've used for every other foul you've called that game - no more and no less. This is not preventative officiating - it's poor officiating.

Don't mean to sound vindictive, but we've gone over having this attitude numerous times here.
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  #11 (permalink)  
Old Sun Dec 21, 2008, 02:48pm
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Game awareness does matter.

When I can look at a book (upside down) I can tell who has three fouls/four fouls.... Does it make a difference in the way I call a game not really but if I know a player has 4, I am more ready when the player gets the 5th.... especially if I know shirts will come out or other dumb things to prevent a T. or other issues on the floor....
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Old Sun Dec 21, 2008, 02:50pm
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One thing that could be said is have a patient whistle, see the end of every play before making a decision to put air on something. This will hopefully lead to calling obvious fouls and decrease the likelihood of the cheap foul. Part of my pregame is precisely: call the fouls that are obvious, dont guess, stay in our primarys (unless it is a non basketball play).

This usually assures that a player earns their fouls.

And by the way, a foul early is not always a foul late, as the game changes so does the call selection. I know that there are plenty here that will disagree, but it is a fact and for anyone here to say that they call it the same every play is .... I will withold my comment

Last edited by icallfouls; Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 02:53pm.
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Old Sun Dec 21, 2008, 02:52pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by icallfouls View Post
And by the way, a foul early is not always a foul late, as the game changes so does the call selection. I know that there are plenty here that will disagree, but it is a fact and for anyone here to say that they call it the same every play is intellectually dishonest.
Wrong.
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Old Sun Dec 21, 2008, 02:57pm
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If a foul takes place and you have been calling that foul all game long, then call the foul regardless of when it took place or who committed the foul. If you know a player has 4 fouls, all I would suggest is make the foul be there and do not call a foul that is totally suspect. I know I have called fouls early in games that I regret or did not like and I try not to make that same mistake later in the game. The 5th foul whether you like it or not is going to be a more scrutinized call than the first 4 fouls. And when it is a star, it is even more scrutinized. Call what you see and you can hardly ever be wrong. But to be completely unaware of a situation is not as smart too in my opinion.

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Old Sun Dec 21, 2008, 02:59pm
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Not wrong

I don't mind that we disagree, this is a hot topic around here.

I should have rephrased the last couple of words, sorry if I offended anyone.
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