players with 4 fouls

[beachbum]

I guess the word cheep is not right. I mean a questionable foul. but I think i get your drift..just call what you see and if someone fouls out, they foul out.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by beachbum

I guess the word cheep is not right. I mean a questionable foul. but I think i get your drift..just call what you see and if someone fouls out, they foul out.

Beachbum, I do want to know when a player has 4 fouls...not to change anything that I am calling, but so I/we are not surprised when the table tells us someone just fouled out. To me, it's the same as knowing when the 6th team foul is called, so we aren't surprised that we are shooting the bonus on the next foul. Some people think that wanting that information has no possible use other than changing the way you are calling - they are wrong. But that has been argued on here before.

[summdawg76]

I will be the black sheep.

I think you need to be aware about who has 4 fouls. If you fouled out the only kid that can dribble the ball for that team, trouble is soon behind. It better be one heck of a foul. Game management skills still have to carry some weight in the game.
I am not saying you ignore obvious advantage gains, but preventive officiating can make the game smother.

[26 Year Gap]

Just had a game yesterday where 4 players fouled out. With them gone, the game cleaned up a little bit.

[icallfouls]

One thing that could be said is have a patient whistle, see the end of every play before making a decision to put air on something. This will hopefully lead to calling obvious fouls and decrease the likelihood of the cheap foul. Part of my pregame is precisely: call the fouls that are obvious, dont guess, stay in our primarys (unless it is a non basketball play).

This usually assures that a player earns their fouls.

And by the way, a foul early is not always a foul late, as the game changes so does the call selection. I know that there are plenty here that will disagree, but it is a fact and for anyone here to say that they call it the same every play is .... I will withold my comment

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by icallfouls

And by the way, a foul early is not always a foul late, as the game changes so does the call selection. I know that there are plenty here that will disagree, but it is a fact and for anyone here to say that they call it the same every play is intellectually dishonest.

Wrong.

[icallfouls]

Not wrong

I don't mind that we disagree, this is a hot topic around here.

I should have rephrased the last couple of words, sorry if I offended anyone.

I heard from a well respected source (NBA, D league & NCAA) that game awareness can make the difference between good officials & exceptional officials. In addition to mentally knowing the team foul count, knowledge of individual fouls aren't bad either as it ties to "knowing the impact of your call". As we will never manipulate the GAME, best officials know the result & consequence of their calls.

NOTE: Every DI official that I have access to, shares the same thoughts & have turned an avocation into a very successful career.


Quality calls on 4s & 5s:

Teams & players practice & train hard to be competitive in the modern game. Post players & strong forwards are involved in more play in crowded competitive areas near the basket. These players are called to defend against players who have eluded other defensive coverage, rebound all missed shots, defend their own area or man, and score when near the basket.With all the possible contact & coverage, it is imperative that officials sort the play & call the fouls that matter. "Cheap" fouls on 4s & 5s can cause a significant competitive disadvantage to a team, and while unintended, unfairly influence play. Make solid verifiable calls on 4s & 5s.

Take it or leave it... just thought I'd share.

[TheOracle]

Originally Posted by icallfouls

One thing that could be said is have a patient whistle, see the end of every play before making a decision to put air on something. This will hopefully lead to calling obvious fouls and decrease the likelihood of the cheap foul. Part of my pregame is precisely: call the fouls that are obvious, dont guess, stay in our primarys (unless it is a non basketball play).

This usually assures that a player earns their fouls.

And by the way, a foul early is not always a foul late, as the game changes so does the call selection. I know that there are plenty here that will disagree, but it is a fact and for anyone here to say that they call it the same every play is .... I will withold my comment

Couple of thoughts. I want to know if a player has 4, and usually I never have to ask because I'll know. The talk about star players getting protected is bogus and a weak argument. First, the only time fouling out is an issue with the players, coahces, and schools is when the game is close down the stretch and a player is important to his team. That said, when this occurs, knowing ther player has 4 gives you the option of trying to prevent him from getting his 5th. "Hey, you got 4, be smart" has helped me a lot, but unless the player likes and trusts you, this tool is unavailable. The other one is "high certainty". I know everyone here is so good that they are always on super focus mode, always 100% certain of all their calls, and never guess because they are always in the best position at all times. I'll never protect any player--star or not--but I will remind myself and work very hard mentally in a close game down rthe stretch to have "high certainty" on every whistle. That maximizes your chances of being successful anyway, but also helps you with how the crew is perceived when a player does foul out.

The trouble always starts when "high certainty" is not obvious on these types of calls. Both sides are right. A foul in minute 1 is a foul in minute 40, but you do control your focus and can apply "high certainty" every single time in the last 2-3 minutes of a close game. None of us can do that for 40 minutes every time we work. That's why we're human.

[Coach Bill]

Originally Posted by TheOracle

"Hey, you got 4, be smart"

Since when is it your job to coach the players? If I'm the opposing coach, it would sure sound like favoritism to me.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by summdawg76

I will be the black sheep.

I think you need to be aware about who has 4 fouls. If you fouled out the only kid that can dribble the ball for that team, trouble is soon behind. It better be one heck of a foul. Game management skills still have to carry some weight in the game.
I am not saying you ignore obvious advantage gains, but preventive officiating can make the game smother.

Gotta tell ya' - this is so wrong I hardly know where to start. First of all, we don't "foul anyone out". The players commit the fouls, we only point them out when they happen. If "the only player who can dribble the ball for a team" fouls out, why is that the official's concern? If he was so valuable to that team, he shouldn't have committed so many fouls. The responsibility is his, not ours. And saying it "better be one heck of a foul" is ridiculous. It "better meet" exactly the same standard you've used for every other foul you've called that game - no more and no less. This is not preventative officiating - it's poor officiating.

Don't mean to sound vindictive, but we've gone over having this attitude numerous times here.

[Kelvin green]

Game awareness does matter.

When I can look at a book (upside down) I can tell who has three fouls/four fouls.... Does it make a difference in the way I call a game not really but if I know a player has 4, I am more ready when the player gets the 5th.... especially if I know shirts will come out or other dumb things to prevent a T. or other issues on the floor....

[JRutledge]

If a foul takes place and you have been calling that foul all game long, then call the foul regardless of when it took place or who committed the foul. If you know a player has 4 fouls, all I would suggest is make the foul be there and do not call a foul that is totally suspect. I know I have called fouls early in games that I regret or did not like and I try not to make that same mistake later in the game. The 5th foul whether you like it or not is going to be a more scrutinized call than the first 4 fouls. And when it is a star, it is even more scrutinized. Call what you see and you can hardly ever be wrong. But to be completely unaware of a situation is not as smart too in my opinion.

Peace

[icallfouls]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If a foul takes place and you have been calling that foul all game long, then call the foul regardless of when it took place or who committed the foul. If you know a player has 4 fouls, all I would suggest is make the foul be there and do not call a foul that is totally suspect. I know I have called fouls early in games that I regret or did not like and I try not to make that same mistake later in the game. The 5th foul whether you like it or not is going to be a more scrutinized call than the first 4 fouls. And when it is a star, it is even more scrutinized. Call what you see and you can hardly ever be wrong. But to be completely unaware of a situation is not as smart too in my opinion.

Peace

Well said, basically my take on things. There are many layers to this topic.

[summdawg76]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If a foul takes place and you have been calling that foul all game long, then call the foul regardless of when it took place or who committed the foul. If you know a player has 4 fouls, all I would suggest is make the foul be there and do not call a foul that is totally suspect. I know I have called fouls early in games that I regret or did not like and I try not to make that same mistake later in the game. The 5th foul whether you like it or not is going to be a more scrutinized call than the first 4 fouls. And when it is a star, it is even more scrutinized. Call what you see and you can hardly ever be wrong. But to be completely unaware of a situation is not as smart too in my opinion.

Peace

How did I miss reading this one? This is exactly my point.