players with 4 fouls

[refnrev]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

You have just reopened Pandora's Box. Be prepared. Be very prepared.

Break out the popcorn!

[summdawg76]

I am always ok with a good discussion that does not include personal insults. Besides, if we all agreed, there would be no need for this board.

[Kelvin green]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Could you explain a bit more what you mean here?

Prevent a T.... If you know he/she is frustrated you may be able to pay attention and get to them early before they have time to do something stupid that we need to deal with...

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Kelvin green

Prevent a T.... If you know he/she is frustrated you may be able to pay attention and get to them early before they have time to do something stupid that we need to deal with...

Kelvin:

Knowing whether a player does or does not have four fouls has nothing to do with the scenario you just painted. The official should always be aware of possible problems with a player's attitude, THAT is game awareness, not knowing whether or not he has four fouls.

MTD, Sr.

[JRutledge]

So when you did not know player "X" has 4 fouls, I am not sure how you would know to be "preventative" in an outburst?

Peace

[just another ref]

This whole line of thinking is thin, at best, IMO. Some players foul out every night and smile the whole time. Others are an outburst waiting to happen when they foul, when they get fouled, or any other time.

[rockyroad]

Like I said, we've had this discussion on here before. Some people want to know as much info as possible - NOT to change the way they are calling the game, but to be aware of what is going on. I will never ask the scorekeeper who has 4 fouls or who is in foul trouble, but if they are putting the fouls on the board or have a PA person announcing the fouls - I WILL know when a player commits their 4th. Others seem to have some misguided notion that this desire for information means I am somehow cheating or trying to manipulate the game. My response to those people - whatever. They don't get it. I don't care that they don't get it. C'est la vie.

[Raymond]

When there are 2 books at the table I will ask them to verify that they have the same players in foul trouble (3 or 4 fouls); if there is a discrepency we can take care of it then and there so we don't have any disputes when someone fouls out.

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

When there are 2 books at the table I will ask them to verify that they have the same players in foul trouble (3 or 4 fouls); if there is a discrepency we can take care of it then and there so we don't have any disputes when someone fouls out.

That's really good, hope you don't mind but after X-Mas break, that's going into my game.

[OHBBREF]

You will see more often than not at the upper levels that when there are two players available to take the foul and the impact player is in foul trouble the non impact player comes away with the foul, just watch the games and comment later.

We really need to know which team has 5 which has 6 for management of the game, and awareness allows us to know if the impact player on team A has 3 and the impact player on team B has 4 fouls. If the player commits the foul you make the call, if either the impact player or another player could get the foul you tend to give it to the non impact player, it is what I have been told to do, by those mentoring me from the D1 and above levels.

as far as knuckleheads go, they get no slack, if it is a foul, it is a foul, but they get the foul. the quicker a knuckle head legitimately gets to three or five the faster you do not have to deal with them.

No one is saying not to make, or to make up, foul calls, they are saying to make the calls consistantly yet where you can use some descretion to contribute to the competativeness and quaility of the game.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Like I said, we've had this discussion on here before. Some people want to know as much info as possible - NOT to change the way they are calling the game, but to be aware of what is going on. I will never ask the scorekeeper who has 4 fouls or who is in foul trouble, but if they are putting the fouls on the board or have a PA person announcing the fouls - I WILL know when a player commits their 4th. Others seem to have some misguided notion that this desire for information means I am somehow cheating or trying to manipulate the game. My response to those people - whatever. They don't get it. I don't care that they don't get it. C'est la vie.

I completely agree.

Peace

[TheOracle]

Originally Posted by icallfouls

One thing that could be said is have a patient whistle, see the end of every play before making a decision to put air on something. This will hopefully lead to calling obvious fouls and decrease the likelihood of the cheap foul. Part of my pregame is precisely: call the fouls that are obvious, dont guess, stay in our primarys (unless it is a non basketball play).

This usually assures that a player earns their fouls.

And by the way, a foul early is not always a foul late, as the game changes so does the call selection. I know that there are plenty here that will disagree, but it is a fact and for anyone here to say that they call it the same every play is .... I will withold my comment

Couple of thoughts. I want to know if a player has 4, and usually I never have to ask because I'll know. The talk about star players getting protected is bogus and a weak argument. First, the only time fouling out is an issue with the players, coahces, and schools is when the game is close down the stretch and a player is important to his team. That said, when this occurs, knowing ther player has 4 gives you the option of trying to prevent him from getting his 5th. "Hey, you got 4, be smart" has helped me a lot, but unless the player likes and trusts you, this tool is unavailable. The other one is "high certainty". I know everyone here is so good that they are always on super focus mode, always 100% certain of all their calls, and never guess because they are always in the best position at all times. I'll never protect any player--star or not--but I will remind myself and work very hard mentally in a close game down rthe stretch to have "high certainty" on every whistle. That maximizes your chances of being successful anyway, but also helps you with how the crew is perceived when a player does foul out.

The trouble always starts when "high certainty" is not obvious on these types of calls. Both sides are right. A foul in minute 1 is a foul in minute 40, but you do control your focus and can apply "high certainty" every single time in the last 2-3 minutes of a close game. None of us can do that for 40 minutes every time we work. That's why we're human.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

RockyRoad:

Knowing the team foul totals is a legitimate piece of information that I want to know but I do not need to now who has four fouls and neither does anyother official. When does a player tend to commit his fifth foul? The fourth quarter. So unless I have a player who has been a real hacker, I am going to be cognizant of the fact that when I report a foul that it could be the player's fifth foul. I just do not report the foul and immediately turn away from the table. I take the same attitude late in the second and fourth quarters if we have not yet reached the bonus situation. This is called dead ball management: don't rush but take care of business.

MTD, Sr.

Thank you for being so concerned with saving me from myself. While we're at it, are there any other pieces of highly flammable information that I ought not to know? You know, for the greater good.

Really? If you haven't reached the bonus, you'll still hang out at the table waiting for them to tell you ... what, that you haven't reached the bonus? Or are you saying that you don't know whether or not you've reached the bonus, and therefore wait at the table for them to tell you? If so, I wish you well finding your shooter. Or do you expect your partner to get your shooter for you? Assuming he's not so dependent on dead ball management to get his information on a need to know basis.

[Coach Bill]

Originally Posted by TheOracle

"Hey, you got 4, be smart"

Since when is it your job to coach the players? If I'm the opposing coach, it would sure sound like favoritism to me.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by Coach Bill

Since when is it your job to coach the players? If I'm the opposing coach, it would sure sound like favoritism to me.

Of course it's favoritism. We favor players over coaches.