5 Second Violation??

[Adam]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

The rule is not intended for anything close to holding the ball out by the division line while the defense plays a zone defense inside the three-point arc.

Happens a couple of times a year when, for whatever reason, both teams are "happy" with the current score + / - one last shot by the offense at the end of a period.

Agreed, if the clock is running, it's not an "actionless contest" in my book.

[chartrusepengui]

Originally Posted by ma_ref

I respectfully disagree. Wouldn't this fall under the "actionless contest" rule?

Ok, who is causing this to be an actionless contest - the O holding the ball or the D not playing any D? Hmmmmmmmmmmm

[ma_ref]

Originally Posted by chartrusepengui

Ok, who is causing this to be an actionless contest - the O holding the ball or the D not playing any D? Hmmmmmmmmmmm

There was a good discussion of this in another thread recently:
Backcourt Question

Personally, I'd warn both teams. Obviously the offense is doing nothing. But all the defense needs to do is get 1 player in a guarding position within 6 feet of the player with the ball to force a 5 sec closely guarded count.

IMHO, by doing nothing both teams are making a farce of the game. If this is a legal play, then what is the point of having a shot clock, if not to force the offense to do something, and prevent a situation exactly like this? Ditto with the 10 sec backcourt count...might as well get rid of both if leagues don't mind situations like this.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by ma_ref

There was a good discussion of this in another thread recently:
Backcourt Question

Personally, I'd warn both teams. Obviously the offense is doing nothing. But all the defense needs to do is get 1 player in a guarding position within 6 feet of the player with the ball to force a 5 sec closely guarded count.

IMHO, by doing nothing both teams are making a farce of the game. If this is a legal play, then what is the point of having a shot clock, if not to force the offense to do something, and prevent a situation exactly like this? Ditto with the 10 sec backcourt count...might as well get rid of both if leagues don't mind situations like this.

Again, under what authority? You are putting a team at a distinct disadvantage by not allowing them to execute a perfectly legal strategy.

Since we seem to be discussing NFHS rules here, there is not point, because there is no shot clock. If you work in a state that has a shot clock, or you want to discuss NCAA or NBA rules, then this discussion is moot.

Bottom line - the game is not actionless, nor is it a farce, if the offense holds the ball near mid-court and the defense chooses not to force the action by closely guarding.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

Bottom line - the game is not actionless, nor is it a farce, if the offense holds the ball near mid-court and the defense chooses not to force the action by closely guarding.

I'll go back to this; if the clock is moving, there's action.

If your state doesn't have a shot clock; this is perfectly legal. If your state does have a shot clock, it's easy to deal with.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by ma_ref

Personally, I'd warn both teams. Obviously the offense is doing nothing. But all the defense needs to do is get 1 player in a guarding position within 6 feet of the player with the ball to force a 5 sec closely guarded count.

I wouldn't warn the teams. But after the first quarter, I might go to the coaches and ask if they'd rather just shorten the quarters. Why let the clock run for 8 minutes, when both teams are happy to play only the last minute of each quarter? Why not just play 2 minute quarters for the 2nd, 3rd and 4th quarters? This is perfectly within the rules and it would eliminate the tedium.

[ma_ref]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

I wouldn't warn the teams. But after the first quarter, I might go to the coaches and ask if they'd rather just shorten the quarters. Why let the clock run for 8 minutes, when both teams are happy to play only the last minute of each quarter? Why not just play 2 minute quarters for the 2nd, 3rd and 4th quarters? This is perfectly within the rules and it would eliminate the tedium.

This is a good suggestion, which I was not aware we had the power to do. I just searched for and found the rule that you mentioned which allows that. Definitely better than having us twiddle our thumbs for the better part of 32 minutes. But it still doesn't get to the root of the problem. Even if you shorten the length of each quarter to 2 minutes, what is to prevent the teams from continuing to stand there and do nothing? You could have an infinite number of overtime periods, and at what point do you call it a night and declare the game over and go home?

[chartrusepengui]

Originally Posted by ma_ref

This is a good suggestion, which I was not aware we had the power to do. I just searched for and found the rule that you mentioned which allows that. Definitely better than having us twiddle our thumbs for the better part of 32 minutes. But it still doesn't get to the root of the problem. Even if you shorten the length of each quarter to 2 minutes, what is to prevent the teams from continuing to stand there and do nothing? You could have an infinite number of overtime periods, and at what point do you call it a night and declare the game over and go home?

Rest assurred that with 10 seconds to go in the game or 1st OT someone will drive the ball to the basket and attempt to score.

[IREFU2]

Originally Posted by ma_ref

This is a good suggestion, which I was not aware we had the power to do. I just searched for and found the rule that you mentioned which allows that. Definitely better than having us twiddle our thumbs for the better part of 32 minutes. But it still doesn't get to the root of the problem. Even if you shorten the length of each quarter to 2 minutes, what is to prevent the teams from continuing to stand there and do nothing? You could have an infinite number of overtime periods, and at what point do you call it a night and declare the game over and go home?

Yawn......

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by ma_ref

might as well get rid of both if leagues don't mind situations like this.

I think it's fairly safe to assume that no league WANTS play like this. But it doesn't happen often enough to warrant addressing it with a major rules change.

[refnrev]

Originally Posted by derwil

If she's not closely guarded then no, you kicked it.

I had a playoff game where one team, who knew they'd get killed if they played 32 minutes of basketball, actually held the ball for 7 minutes of a quarter. No passes, just held the ball after the half court throw in. Perfectly legal.

Longest I have ever seen the ball held is 7:45. Box score that quarter was 2-0.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by refnrev

Longest I have ever seen the ball held is 7:45. Box score that quarter was 2-0.

I've now got you beat - local holiday HS boy's tournament. One team felt the were going to be out-matched, so they got the opening tip and held the ball. Literally. Until they accidentally threw it away with only a minute or so left in the quarter. Still managed to hold the other team scoreless: score at halftime was 0-0. Final was 17-6. Yes, HS boy's varsity game.

[truerookie]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

I've now got you beat - local holiday HS boy's tournament. One team felt the were going to be out-matched, so they got the opening tip and held the ball. Literally. Until they accidentally threw it away with only a minute or so left in the quarter. Still managed to hold the other team scoreless: score at halftime was 0-0. Final was 17-6. Yes, HS boy's varsity game.

How long was the game? 45 min-1 hour?

[grunewar]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

I've now got you beat - local holiday HS boy's tournament. One team felt the were going to be out-matched, so they got the opening tip and held the ball. Literally. Until they accidentally threw it away with only a minute or so left in the quarter. Still managed to hold the other team scoreless: score at halftime was 0-0. Final was 17-6. Yes, HS boy's varsity game.

M&M - just curious, what were the players/fans reaction to all of this? Any fans get upset? Yell? Coaches coaching? Did the players move at all or just stand in one spot with their hands on their hips? Inquiring minds (ok, mine anyhow) want to know?

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by grunewar

M&M - just curious, what were the players/fans reaction to all of this? Any fans get upset? Yell? Coaches coaching? Did the players move at all or just stand in one spot with their hands on their hips? Inquiring minds (ok, mine anyhow) want to know?

Don't know, because I wasn't there, but it was on the local news. I know some of the officials that work in that tournament, so I'll try to find out any additional tidbits.