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Old Wed Dec 17, 2008, 10:44pm
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Unusual Situation - Did we get it right?

I had an unusual situation this evening and would like some opinions
as to whether we got it right or not.

During the introductions of the starting lineups prior to the game it
was discovered that BOTH teams had number errors in the book. This is
easy if it were only one team, and there is reference in the case book
to one team having an error, but I can't find anything that
specifically addresses errors by both teams.

Here is how we handled it. Since both errors were discovered during
introductions, I considered this to be a simultaneous technical foul.
By rule, there are no free throws for simultaneous fouls and play is
resumed at the point of interuption. Since play hadn't started yet, I
considered the POI to be the jump ball and that is how we started the
game. Each team was charged with a team foul, which effectively
allowed both teams to shoot the bonus one foul sooner than normal.

Was this correct? The problem I have with the way we handled it is
that there was no real penalty to either team for the errors. Would
anyone have treated this differently?
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Old Wed Dec 17, 2008, 10:46pm
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Perfect.

You nailed it.
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Old Wed Dec 17, 2008, 10:57pm
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Here Are The Nails ...

3) Penalized when they occur, after ten minute time limit. The infraction occurs when the scorer is advised to add to or change the scorebook. The foul must be charged when it occurs and enforced when the ball next becomes live. Once the ball has become live, it is too late to penalize. A maximum of one technical foul per team regardless of the number of infractions for 2a, 3a, 3b, 3c, 4a:
b) A team shall not require the scorer to change a team member, or player, number in the scorebook (with exception), after the ten minute time limit. Team technical foul. If there is no request for change, or if a team member does not become a player, thus avoiding the change, there is no penalty.
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Old Wed Dec 17, 2008, 11:16pm
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And even better, they're both charged to the HCs, so hee-hee-hee they both have to sit.
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Old Wed Dec 17, 2008, 11:18pm
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I thought i read in the case a while back that there is a situation before the initial toss to start the game, that a situation where you have a single tech. foul on both teams, both teams shoot 2 shots for the technicals, and then start the game with a jump ball??????
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Old Wed Dec 17, 2008, 11:20pm
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neither coach would be charged a technical foul in this case.
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Old Wed Dec 17, 2008, 11:33pm
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MY bad. You are right, I was thinking about the illegla uniform rule.
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Old Wed Dec 17, 2008, 11:40pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jevaque View Post
I thought i read in the case a while back that there is a situation before the initial toss to start the game, that a situation where you have a single tech. foul on both teams, both teams shoot 2 shots for the technicals, and then start the game with a jump ball??????
That would be the case if the offenses didn't occur simultaneously. In this case each team had a number problem with a starter. The book needs to be changed when the starter takes the court to begin the game, so the infractions occur at the same time.
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Old Thu Dec 18, 2008, 12:13am
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true, but is the techs didnt happen simultaneously then there wouldnt be a jump ball, say that team A received the second tech. then team B would get the throw in at half court opp the table, AP arrow to team A.
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Old Thu Dec 18, 2008, 12:27am
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Originally Posted by jevaque View Post
true, but is the techs didnt happen simultaneously then there wouldnt be a jump ball, say that team A received the second tech. then team B would get the throw in at half court opp the table, AP arrow to team A.
Correct. Note that the NCAA level is different due to resuming at the POI on most single technical fouls. NCAA would still conduct a jump ball.
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Old Thu Dec 18, 2008, 07:16am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
That would be the case if the offenses didn't occur simultaneously.
That was what I struggled with - was this really a simultaneous situation. The rule says the infraction is penalized when it occurs but doesn't really define "occurs". Does it "occur" when it is discovered? Did it "occur" 10 minutes prior to game time when I checked and signed the book? In this case the visiting team was introduced and the scorer was instructed to change their error. Then 2 minutes later, the home team was introduced and the scorer was instructed to change their error. If they weren't ruled simultaneous, the technicals would have been enforced in the order they occured, which would have resulted in two shots for each team and then the visiting team getting the ball. I decided to treat the entire 10 minute pre-game time as the same point in time. I would have done the same thing if one error was discovered 7 minutes prior to game time and one was discovered during introductions. Your comment about the book really needing to be changed when they entered the game and since they were starters, that was simultaneous helps me resolve this issue in my mind. Thanks!

Now a different twist. Let's assume neither player was a starter. In this case the error wouldn't have been discovered until they entered the game, and provided they didn't enter the game at the same time, each technical would have resulted in two shots plus possession. In this case the exact same error would have been penalized differently. I guess it really does come down to when the error(s) are discovered.
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Old Thu Dec 18, 2008, 09:10am
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Yep - timing is everything.
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Old Thu Dec 18, 2008, 09:17am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kwv001 View Post
That was what I struggled with - was this really a simultaneous situation. ...snip.... Your comment about the book really needing to be changed when they entered the game and since they were starters, that was simultaneous helps me resolve this issue in my mind. Thanks!
Glad to be of help.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kwv001 View Post
Now a different twist. Let's assume neither player was a starter. In this case the error wouldn't have been discovered until they entered the game, and provided they didn't enter the game at the same time, each technical would have resulted in two shots plus possession. In this case the exact same error would have been penalized differently. I guess it really does come down to when the error(s) are discovered.
You've got it.
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Old Thu Dec 18, 2008, 09:36am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kwv001 View Post
Was this correct? The problem I have with the way we handled it is that there was no real penalty to either team for the errors.
There was: a T for each team. Each team started the game with a team foul. Since both teams offended, the shooting part of the T was mitigated, but that doesn't mean there was no penalty.

If you're concerned about the disincentive that a T provides to get the book right, then I'd say it's still intact. Teams can't count on each other to screw up their books every game, right?
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