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Old Wed Dec 17, 2008, 04:39pm
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ruling please.

team A shows up to a games with 9 players, his tenth player missed the bus and will be arriving late after the game starts. coach of team A fills out the book and has the entire team listed in the book . when the referee checks the book before the game , he notices nine players present and ten players listed in the book. is this a violation for having to many players listed in the book and when that player arrives can she participate?
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Old Wed Dec 17, 2008, 04:47pm
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no violation or penalty. Coach can have 15 in the book and 5 on the bench if he wants. when the kid shows up he can play with no penalty. Its the other way around that is the problem. If he only puts nine in the book and a tenth shows up... it is a T when that player enters the game.
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Old Wed Dec 17, 2008, 04:48pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scat03 View Post
team A shows up to a games with 9 players, his tenth player missed the bus and will be arriving late after the game starts. coach of team A fills out the book and has the entire team listed in the book . when the referee checks the book before the game , he notices nine players present and ten players listed in the book. is this a violation for having to many players listed in the book and when that player arrives can she participate?
No violation here. Yes, late A10 can play after he/she arrives.

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Old Wed Dec 17, 2008, 05:15pm
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There are no rules by the NF standards. There might be rules as it relates to your state or local leagues for such a standard. I doubt it, but there is a possibility of some local rules at play.

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Old Wed Dec 17, 2008, 08:27pm
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The "B" Does Not Stand For Blind ...

IAABO Refresher Exam 2005 (NFHS Rules):
Question 73: Squad member #45 missed the bus and is not present at the time the squad list and starting lineup must be submitted for team members. During the pregame warmup, the referee counts eleven team members of team A but while checking the book team A has twelve team members listed. Referee informs the coach that the squad member who is not present may not be placed in the book even if he/she will get to the game late. Is the referee correct?
Answer: Yes
Rule Citation: Rule 3, Section 2, Article 1; Rule 4, Section 34, Article 4

Here's a link to the whole mess. Worth a look just for the great memories of Jurassic Referee.

NCAAW Rules
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Old Wed Dec 17, 2008, 10:12pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Here's a link to the whole mess. Worth a look just for the great memories of Jurassic Referee.
And even more of a blast from the past...OS posted an opinion that...
1) made sense and...
2) was based on sound rules application
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Old Wed Dec 17, 2008, 10:35pm
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Ask yourself what is the intent and purpose of the team roster rule.

Each team is to supply the scorer with a list of each team member who MAY participate at least 10 minutes prior to the start of the contest. The team is also required to designate who will be the starters. Why?

That is so that the opponent knows who they are up against that night and can make some preparations and match-up decisions, especially with the starting line-up. It is for basic fairness that a team must let their opponent know that "star guard Johnny" is on the team and might be playing once he arrives. Perhaps he has a doctor's appointment after school and that is why he is late. Perhaps he is in the training room being wrapped and that is why he isn't on the floor during warm-ups.

The point of the whole thing is to give notification to the opponent of who they are competing against that night. If one understands the rule in this manner, then it should be simple to come to the conclusion that anyone who may play needs to be listed whether that individual is currently present or not.
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Old Thu Dec 18, 2008, 08:58am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Referee informs the coach that the squad member who is not present may not be placed in the book even if he/she will get to the game late.
And how does the referee officially determine that the player is not present? Does he search the locker room? Does he make every player pull off his warm-up to determine which number is missing?

That IAABO interp from 2005 is completely ludicrous in my opinion.
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Old Thu Dec 18, 2008, 08:59am
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Old Thu Dec 18, 2008, 09:56am
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To pick nits..

Quote:
Originally Posted by BBall_Junkie View Post
If he only puts nine in the book and a tenth shows up... it is a T when that player enters the game.
I've been getting my a$$ kicked a bit about this, so to clarify, it is an infraction when the scorer is advised to add to or change the scorebook.

The penalty is a Team Technical. The sitch you describe should lead to the T.
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Old Thu Dec 18, 2008, 10:13am
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NCAA contradicts

the NCAA rule says that all players who May participate must be in the book and the starters designated in 3-3-1 then specifically designates the violation consequnces if not done in 3-3-2.


the Fed rules say At least 10 minutes before the scheduled starting time, each team shall supply the scorers with the name and number of each team member and designate the five starting players.
3-2-1. 3-2-2 designates violation consequnces if not done

So that question or reference is contrary to the written rule, the way I read it the missing play May participate if they get there and the Fed isn't real specific about players they want each team member in the book.

Could a member get some clarification as to how they come up with that interpretaion of the rule, it isn't like it is FIBBY or anything.
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Old Thu Dec 18, 2008, 10:25am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OHBBREF View Post
the NCAA rule says that all players who May participate must be in the book and the starters designated in 3-3-1 then specifically designates the violation consequnces if not done in 3-3-2.
No it doesn't. Here's the NCAA rule:

Rule 3
Section 3. Lineup
Art. 1.
Before the 10-minute mark is reached on the game clock that is counting
down the time before the start of the game, each team shall supply the scorers
with names and uniform numbers of squad members who may participate, and
those of the five starting players.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OHBBREF View Post
the Fed rules say At least 10 minutes before the scheduled starting time, each team shall supply the scorers with the name and number of each team member and designate the five starting players.
3-2-1. 3-2-2 designates violation consequnces if not done

So that question or reference is contrary to the written rule, the way I read it the missing play May participate if they get there and the Fed isn't real specific about players they want each team member in the book.

Could a member get some clarification as to how they come up with that interpretaion of the rule, it isn't like it is FIBBY or anything.
I'm failing to see the contradiction.

All that I can tell you is that the rules require each team member to be listed on the roster that the scorer receives. It is the scorer's job to write that info into the official book. If someone isn't listed on the supplied roster, then it will be a team technical foul if and when that individual participates. It's really that simple.

Last edited by Nevadaref; Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 11:07am.
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Old Thu Dec 18, 2008, 10:28am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by referee99 View Post
I've been getting my a$$ kicked a bit about this, so to clarify, it is an infraction when the scorer is advised to add to or change the scorebook.

The penalty is a Team Technical. The sitch you describe should lead to the T.
pretty sure that is what I said....
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Old Thu Dec 18, 2008, 10:35am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BBall_Junkie View Post
pretty sure that is what I said....
You wrote, "it is a T when that player enters the game."

He said that he was picking a nit. He was pointing out that the T may not occur at that time. The scorer may not notice until that individual fouls or scores a basket. The scorer might fail to notify the officials upon entry, so the T will occur when the problem is noticed and when the book is changed as the rule says.

Also, to pick another nit... a "player" wouldn't be entering the game. Players are those who are in the game.
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