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Old Tue Dec 16, 2008, 11:17am
Ref Ump Welsch
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To T or Not to T, that is the Question

Had a game this past weekend, two schools playing at a neutral site. Timeout called. Teams come back out on the floor. "Home" team only has 4 players, and I was double-checking my count when partner went ahead and gave the "visiting" team the ball for the throw-in. I see the 5th player for "home" go to the table during the throw-in, and then lo and behold, she enters the game while the clock is running. I blow my whistle and give the T sign. When I went to report it, the timer, who is the AD at the "neutral" school, indicates that it was his fault because he told her to go ahead and enter. After conferring with my partner, I waved off the T, with explanation to both teams. Good handle or bad? How would you have handled it differently? I know one way I would have handled it differently would have been to hold partner up for a moment while I was double-checking the count, but he was wanting the pace of the game to go quicker because the teams were slow coming out of their timeouts.
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Old Tue Dec 16, 2008, 11:23am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ref Ump Welsch View Post
Had a game this past weekend, two schools playing at a neutral site. Timeout called. Teams come back out on the floor. "Home" team only has 4 players, and I was double-checking my count when partner went ahead and gave the "visiting" team the ball for the throw-in. I see the 5th player for "home" go to the table during the throw-in, and then lo and behold, she enters the game while the clock is running. I blow my whistle and give the T sign. When I went to report it, the timer, who is the AD at the "neutral" school, indicates that it was his fault because he told her to go ahead and enter. After conferring with my partner, I waved off the T, with explanation to both teams. Good handle or bad? How would you have handled it differently? I know one way I would have handled it differently would have been to hold partner up for a moment while I was double-checking the count, but he was wanting the pace of the game to go quicker because the teams were slow coming out of their timeouts.
AFTER A TIME-OUT this is a T.

See 10-1-9
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Tue Dec 16, 2008, 11:25am
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DELAYING RETURN FOLLOWING TIME-OUT
10.1.9 SITUATION:
Following a charged time-out Team B is still with their
coach on the sideline when the official sounds the whistle to indicate play will
resume. Four players of B return to the court just in time to play defense as A1
attempts an unsuccessful three-pointer. B1 rebounds and throws a long pass to

B5 who enters the court just in time to catch the pass.
RULING: A technical foul
is immed iately charged to Team B for failing to have all players return to the court
at approximately the same time following a time-out or intermission. While it is
true the entire team may be off the court while the procedure is being used, once
a team responds, all players must enter the court at approximately the same time.

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Old Tue Dec 16, 2008, 11:26am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ref Ump Welsch View Post
Had a game this past weekend, two schools playing at a neutral site. Timeout called. Teams come back out on the floor. "Home" team only has 4 players, and I was double-checking my count when partner went ahead and gave the "visiting" team the ball for the throw-in. I see the 5th player for "home" go to the table during the throw-in, and then lo and behold, she enters the game while the clock is running. I blow my whistle and give the T sign. When I went to report it, the timer, who is the AD at the "neutral" school, indicates that it was his fault because he told her to go ahead and enter. After conferring with my partner, I waved off the T, with explanation to both teams. Good handle or bad? How would you have handled it differently? I know one way I would have handled it differently would have been to hold partner up for a moment while I was double-checking the count, but he was wanting the pace of the game to go quicker because the teams were slow coming out of their timeouts.
Correct call is a Team Tech under 10-1-9. If this was after a lengthy substitution process, follow case play 10.3.2 B.
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Old Tue Dec 16, 2008, 11:30am
Ref Ump Welsch
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Was my waving off the T because the timer told her to go ahead and enter the game a good move or not? That's my biggest question.

The rule references and all I got down pat, it was just the situation was so "bizarre" I wasn't sure if I shouldn't have waved off the T.
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Old Tue Dec 16, 2008, 11:33am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ref Ump Welsch View Post
Was my waving off the T because the timer told her to go ahead and enter the game a good move or not? That's my biggest question.

The rule references and all I got down pat, it was just the situation was so "bizarre" I wasn't sure if I shouldn't have waved off the T.
No, it was the wrong move to take away the T.
Whether she entered the court or not is unimportant. The mere fact that she failed to return at approximately the same time as the rest of her teammates is what warrants the T in this case.
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Old Tue Dec 16, 2008, 03:18pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ref Ump Welsch View Post
I was double-checking my count when partner went ahead and gave the "visiting" team the ball for the throw-in.

Was your hand still up in the '"stop sign" to your partner. If so, you can easily support the fact that the ball didn't properly become live, allow the player to enter, put any time back on the clock and now properly administer the throw-in.
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Old Tue Dec 16, 2008, 03:30pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
Was your hand still up in the '"stop sign" to your partner. If so, you can easily support the fact that the ball didn't properly become live, allow the player to enter, put any time back on the clock and now properly administer the throw-in.
I'm with Bob -- do whatever it takes to prevent the T. You're counting, not sure they're all there, see the ball handed off -- then you need to tweet, and make partner take the ball back. That's still less time taken than giving, and then shooting, the T.
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Old Tue Dec 16, 2008, 03:42pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ref Ump Welsch View Post
..... the timer, who is the AD at the "neutral" school, indicates that it was his fault because he told her to go ahead and enter.
A side note to this situation. This particular situation was not a substitution but the point is the same. It should be stressed over and over to coaches and players that the timer is not authorized in this capacity. I try to mention this in every pregame conference to the coaches. No sub may enter the court until beckoned by the official. No sub will be beckoned until they report to the X. The horn is a signal to get the officials attention. It is not a green light.
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Old Tue Dec 16, 2008, 04:01pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ref Ump Welsch View Post
"Home" team only has 4 players, and I was double-checking my count when partner went ahead and gave the "visiting" team the ball for the throw-in.
There are several issues here, all of which fall first on the officials.
if there were only four players on the floor their should have been a stop sign up for your partner because if a team has five eligable players they need to have them on the floor - so you need to stop the game until that happens and/or issue a technical because of that, or because they did not come out on the floor at the same time.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ref Ump Welsch View Post
Was my waving off the T because the timer told her to go ahead and enter the game a good move or not?
The timer does not have the authority to send a player into the game - and since the player did not arrive at the table prior to the warning horn - they can not enter the game until the next available oportunity. So a Technical for the Illegal substitution is waranted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
Whether she entered the court or not is unimportant. The mere fact that she failed to return at approximately the same time as the rest of her teammates is what warrants the T in this case.
I am going to have to disagree with you here - She doesn't get the T -if she doesn't enter the game - based on what has transpiered in the post. By their playing on they have made that point irrelevant, they should have issued the T becuase their were not five players on the floor ot it they chose to after waiting for the fifth player because they didn't come out of the huddle and onto the floor at the same time.
RUW issued the T for the Illegal substitution that occured when the player came onto the floor.

Probably just a nit picky point - but that seems to be what transpired and if questions arise that would need to be what was said.
However proper deadball managment could have avoided the situation all together.

Now the final point - there are three solid reasons a T could have been given here - you gave the T, it was deserved - you need to stick by your decision. Those affected by the T will learn from it.
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  #11 (permalink)  
Old Tue Dec 16, 2008, 04:08pm
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Originally Posted by OHBBREF View Post


.... since the player did not arrive at the table prior to the warning horn - they can not enter the game until the next available oportunity. So a Technical for the Illegal substitution is waranted.


If I understand correctly, this was not a substitution, but a failure or all players to return to the court at the same time following a time-out. Sorry if my reference to substitution was confusing.
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Old Tue Dec 16, 2008, 04:16pm
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Originally Posted by just another ref View Post
If I understand correctly, this was not a substitution, but a failure or all players to return to the court at the same time following a time-out. Sorry if my reference to substitution was confusing.
once the ball became live - I believe the player can not enter the game without the process of a substitution.
if a team has only five players and one becomes injured and is removed from the game they must report to the table to re-enter the game they could not just come onto the floor, So they would have to wait until the next available oportunity.

So I am saying that you started with four making it okay that is where I get the T being for the illegal substitution.

If they come onto the floor at that point from the bench there is a T automatically for prior stated reasons.
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Old Tue Dec 16, 2008, 04:28pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
Whether she entered the court or not is unimportant. The mere fact that she failed to return at approximately the same time as the rest of her teammates is what warrants the T in this case.
Disagree...it does matter if they enter the court or not. The T is issued when the player returns at a different time...not for not returning when they should.
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Old Tue Dec 16, 2008, 04:36pm
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Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
Was your hand still up in the '"stop sign" to your partner. If so, you can easily support the fact that the ball didn't properly become live, allow the player to enter, put any time back on the clock and now properly administer the throw-in.
This is exactly how I handled it Saturday. Team A had 6 kids on the floor, and I had my hand up. My partner handed the girl the ball, and I whistled for him to take it back. He did, and we waited until the girls figured out who was going to leave. Took about 5 seconds altogether, and no T.
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Old Tue Dec 16, 2008, 04:39pm
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Originally Posted by mbyron View Post
This is exactly how I handled it Saturday. Team A had 6 kids on the floor, and I had my hand up. My partner handed the girl the ball, and I whistled for him to take it back. He did, and we waited until the girls figured out who was going to leave. Took about 5 seconds altogether, and no T.
I did the same thing Saturday morning. First time I'd had to do it in a couple years.
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