To T or Not to T, that is the Question

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I'm not NV, but I'd answer "yes" -- it is the subs fault.

I agree, but have some sympathy for a kid listening to a person (scorer/timer) in a position of authority. That is what a kid should do.
Thankfully, it is a moot point since as the rules are currently written following a time-out it is a technical foul prior to this and whether or not the player actually enters the court.

Originally Posted by BBall_Junkie

are we not just arguing semantics at this point? a completely seperate rule says that it is a T to compete with 4 players when you have players available and eligible... So.... throw out the two camps that are arguing back and forth and issue a T for this reason.

Really??? Have you got any rules support for your opinion?

Originally Posted by OHBBREF

... yes the player is still a player during a time out, but once (s)he stays on the bench and goes to the table and the ball is live, (s)he isn't a player anymore - they would be considered bench personel/substitue.

that is the difference between the OP and the case plays - the player in the OP went to the table to get back into the game, where as in the case plays the player came off the bench onto the floor.

That is where I draw the line, that made this player a substitue.

While I concur with most of the thoughts you expressed in this post, I disagree with this one because there are specific rules stating when a player becomes bench personnel. In this case, none of the required things to make a player a member of bench personnel took place. Those requirements have to be followed. You can't just make up your own and try to enforce them (such as the player went to the bench area and remained there). That is what you are doing and that is why you are reaching a mistaken conclusion.

4-34-3 "A player becomes bench personnel after his/her substitute becomes a player or after notification of the coach following his/her disqualification."

4-34-2 "During an intermission, all team members are bench personnel."

Originally Posted by OHBBREF

There is no definition as to how long the player can stay on the bench and then reenter the game as long as there is no intent to decieve? what if 20 seconds ran off the clock, 30 seconds, little Johnny needed an extra breather.

That's why bob and I both believe that the rule should be changed. We just noted that a couple of posts ago. But until the rule is changed we have to follow it as is.

Originally Posted by OHBBREF

What if a fight broke out after the clock started and A5 was on the bench or was at the table and came off on to the floor? you still have A5 as a player or bench personel?

A5 is player. Why? Because that's what the rules say. It's that simple.

Originally Posted by OHBBREF

THE BOTTOM LINE HERE IS DO NOT MAKE THE BALL LIVE WITH 8 OR 9 PLAYERS ON THE FLOOR UNLESS YOU KNOW WHY AND HOW YOU ARE GOING TO DEAL WITH IT!

I agree.