Clock doesn't start question

[OHBBREF]

Originally Posted by just another ref

If all this happens at the start of the quarter, nobody cares. But what if this situation takes place with 3 seconds left in a close game? Do you take off 1 second or 2?

With three seconds left in a close game - I have a count going, and at least one of my partners has a count going. So if this happens we get together and decide if it is one or two seconds based on the counts we have.

The point is there are going to be timing errors, if you have good clock awareness on the floor your crew will have knowlege of the time that ran of the clock.
That is all it is going to take - The R says, "Coaches the clock didn't start, our count has Two seconds coming off the clock" - while that is happening that your partner is at the table getting the clock reset and telling the timer that they need to put down their cell phone and start paying attention to what they are doing.
And get the ball back in play.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by just another ref

If all this happens at the start of the quarter, nobody cares. But what if this situation takes place with 3 seconds left in a close game? Do you take off 1 second or 2?

I might if I do a count like I would normally with that kind of time left. I guess that does not mean definite to you, because you say it does not. But I tend to be very aware of these kinds of things anyway.

Peace

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by OHBBREF

With three seconds left in a close game - I have a count going, and at least one of my partners has a count going. So if this happens we get together and decide if it is one or two seconds based on the counts we have.

The point is there are going to be timing errors, if you have good clock awareness on the floor your crew will have knowlege of the time that ran of the clock.
That is all it is going to take - The R says, "Coaches the clock didn't start, our count has Two seconds coming off the clock" - while that is happening that your partner is at the table getting the clock reset and telling the timer that they need to put down their cell phone and start paying attention to what they are doing.
And get the ball back in play.

You have a count. I have a count. Rut has a count. But the question is what you advise an official to do that did not have a count. It is easy to take a couple of seconds off the clock at the start of a quarter. I'm asking if he would tell these poor unfortunates with no count to take a "second or two" off at the end, when a second or two is a significant percentage of the time left in the game.

[OHBBREF]

Originally Posted by just another ref

If all this happens at the start of the quarter, nobody cares. But what if this situation takes place with 3 seconds left in a close game? Do you take off 1 second or 2?

Actually it is a good thing to catch something like this early on in a game or quarter for a couple of reasons;
1) It is a chance to have a little heart to heart with your clock operator about the penalties/bodily harm that you are going to inflict upon them if they ruin your game by screwing up the clock. This could prevent further occurances down the line.
2) This shows everyone in the facility that you are on top of the timing as well as everything else on the floor - so if and when this situation were to occur again during this contest - you have credibility in handling the situation up front. So if you say two seconds or three second ran off the clock, there is less likely to be opposition due to the early handling of the clock.

[OHBBREF]

Originally Posted by just another ref

But the question is what you advise an official to do that did not have a count.

GET A COUNT - If you didn't have one you better reenact it and come up with something because for the 23:57 you did one great job - but you are going down for screwing up the last 3 seconds of the game because the table fell asleep!

[deecee]

Lets say that you have a good hunch that at least 5 seconds has run off -- now by hunch I mean experience --. Would you

a. not reset AT LEAST 5 seconds
b. reset with taking off the 5 seconds

I would reset at least 5 seconds -- and my belief is closer with Jrut -- I know that time should have run and I know that at least 5 seconds should have been deducted.

I could be 100% wrong and not reset -- or I could be 100% wrong and guess how much time elapsed or I could be 100% right up to a certain point (which in turn would only make me x% wrong which would be less than 100%).

In a standard game it takes between 4-7 seconds to bing the ball up the court (in a non fast break instance) a player will take a little less than 2 dribbles per second in normal non pressed or rush activity. I am not saying I will go by this but if a player inbounds the ball in the back court and walks it up and then dribbles a bit in the front court I would say that between 5-10 seconds have passed. Would I take off 10 -- NO. But I have definite knowledge that AT LEAST 5 seconds should have passed so I would go with something like 5-6. All this is hypothetical of course since I have a back court count at all time as well as closely guarded when necessary, and I would never let the clock not run this long without addressing it.

But why does Definite knowledge only apply to the WHOLE amount and not partial? Seems like we are taking a all or none stance when even some amount of correction would help with perception.

[Nevadaref]

For those who care the NCAAW ruling on this is different from the NCAAM and NFHS.
In the absence of a courtside monitor, the NCAAW are instructed to estimate how much time elapsed during the play and take that off the clock. On the mens side and at the NFHS level the officials are to use definite knowledge, not their best guess.

If there is a courtside monitor, the play can be watched on that and timed with a handheld stopwatch. That is considered other definite information. Also if the timer provides information to the officials that can be considered.

[JRutledge]

This was an NCAA Ruling, not an NCAA Women's (alone) ruling. The NCAA does not have differences on these kinds of plays to correct obvious mistakes.

Peace

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

This was an NCAA Ruling, not an NCAA Women's (alone) ruling. The NCAA does not have differences on these kinds of plays to correct obvious mistakes.

My recollection was that it was published under the WOMEN'S Guidelines last season and therefore doesn't apply to the men's side, but I'm willing to double-check.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

My recollection was that it was published under the WOMEN'S Guidelines last season and therefore doesn't apply to the men's side, but I'm willing to double-check.

Maybe it was posted as something to remind the Women's Officials, but the rules are not different for either NCAA Men’s or NCAA Women's Rules. And NCAA Women's Basketball had a couple of very high profile situations where the clock did not start properly last year (Tennessee-Rutgers, Minnesota-North (or South) Dakota).

Actually the casebook gives a couple of examples of timing errors and they do not make any distinction between the Men's or Women's Rules.

Peace