What do you have... Strange play

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

The ball is not live when it is available; it is live when it is at the disposal of the thrower. There is a big difference.

6-1-2b: The ball becomes live when on a throw-in, it is at the disposal of the thrower.

4-4-7b: A ball is at the disposal of a player when it is available to a player after a goal.




So the big difference is?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

6-1-2b: The ball becomes live when on a throw-in, it is at the disposal of the thrower.

4-4-7b: A ball is at the disposal of a player when it is available to a player after a goal.




So the big difference is?

That "available" isn't defined.
Interesting point, I guess I wasn't aware "available" was used. Since I didn't think it was there, I was thinking of the word in it's common everyday usage. IOW, the ball could be "available" to a player even though they were no where near it.

play: B1 gets a steal in A's front court and passes to B2 who is cherry-picking underneath B's basket. B2 scores quickly and the ball bounces under the basket. It's "available," yet I don't think anyone is going to start counting until A gets back to grab it and get out of bounds. We are supposed to start counting the moment it becomes available.

BTW, thanks for the correction on the term.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

play: B1 gets a steal in A's front court and passes to B2 who is cherry-picking underneath B's basket. B2 scores quickly and the ball bounces under the basket. It's "available," yet I don't think anyone is going to start counting until A gets back to grab it and get out of bounds. We are supposed to start counting the moment it becomes available.

I think this is a time when many officials are too generous in waiting to start the count. If all A's players are 50' away I think most of us will hold the count briefly, especially if one is hustling to get the ball. The problem I see is when B scores and presses and A is deliberately slow to pick up the ball, trying to allow themselves extra time to set up the press break, or sitting on a lead in the last minute of the game.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I think this is a time when many officials are too generous in waiting to start the count. If all A's players are 50' away I think most of us will hold the count briefly, especially if one is hustling to get the ball. The problem I see is when B scores and presses and A is deliberately slow to pick up the ball, trying to allow themselves extra time to set up the press break, or sitting on a lead in the last minute of the game.

Most, maybe, but not me. I give them "reasonable time" to pick it up and then I start counting. I start about 1 or 2 a game before the player picks it up.

[Juulie Downs]

Originally Posted by just another ref

6-1-2b: The ball becomes live when on a throw-in, it is at the disposal of the thrower.

4-4-7b: A ball is at the disposal of a player when it is available to a player after a goal.

Thinking about how I"ve called this in the past, and the OP, I'd say the ball was probably "available" when the foul happened. However, whose judgment counts? If the new trail (on the endline) hasn't yet started the count, maybe he thinks it wasn't "available". So is it his opinion or mine?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Juulie Downs

Thinking about how I"ve called this in the past, and the OP, I'd say the ball was probably "available" when the foul happened. However, whose judgment counts? If the new trail (on the endline) hasn't yet started the count, maybe he thinks it wasn't "available". So is it his opinion or mine?

If you called the foul, I would say it's yours.

[Juulie Downs]

Originally Posted by just another ref

If you called the foul, I would say it's yours.

Hmmm.....

Gonna have to think about that a little. So I call it personal. P comes in and says, "Ball wasn't available yet, it's a T". Or we've got a double whistle, with P signalling the T. Is this just standard team disagreement? Someone gives, the other one takes it to the table?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Juulie Downs

Hmmm.....

Gonna have to think about that a little. So I call it personal. P comes in and says, "Ball wasn't available yet, it's a T". Or we've got a double whistle, with P signalling the T. Is this just standard team disagreement? Someone gives, the other one takes it to the table?

If you call a personal, he has no authority to set aside your call. Double whistle disagreement, according to all the blarge people, I guess you have to charge both.

[Skarecrow]

Originally Posted by just another ref

If you call a personal, he has no authority to set aside your call. Double whistle disagreement, according to all the blarge people, I guess you have to charge both.

I am new to this board as you can tell from the number of postings, but I have to tell you, that here in Utah, we'd get slaughtered as refs if we dared to call a "blarge." That's like two cars crashing in the intersection...one has to be red and the other green...can't both be guilty of a foul on the same play.....at least, not in Northern Utah....

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Skarecrow

I am new to this board as you can tell from the number of postings, but I have to tell you, that here in Utah, we'd get slaughtered as refs if we dared to call a "blarge." That's like two cars crashing in the intersection...one has to be red and the other green...can't both be guilty of a foul on the same play.....at least, not in Northern Utah....

You're preaching to the choir here, my friend.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Skarecrow

I am new to this board as you can tell from the number of postings, but I have to tell you, that here in Utah, we'd get slaughtered as refs if we dared to call a "blarge." That's like two cars crashing in the intersection...one has to be red and the other green...can't both be guilty of a foul on the same play.....at least, not in Northern Utah....

So in Northern Utah, when the lead blows his whistle, puts up a fist, puts his hand behind his head, and calls, "Player control", and at exactly the same time, the trail blows his whistle, puts up a fist, puts both hands on his hips, and calls, "Block", what do you do, by rule, next? And no fair answering that double whistles should have been covered in pregame, because even if it was, it happened, and now you have to deal with it, as NFHS rules dictate.

[Juulie Downs]

Originally Posted by just another ref

If you call a personal, he has no authority to set aside your call. Double whistle disagreement, according to all the blarge people, I guess you have to charge both.

That's ridiculous. Can't call the same player for BOTH a personal AND a technical on the same play!! This isn't like a blarge at all. It's like a double whistle with one ref calling PC and the other a travel.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Juulie Downs

That's ridiculous.

I agree

Can't call the same player for BOTH a personal AND a technical on the same play!!

I agree, but if these were the signals that were made, according to several in other threads, a preliminary signal commits an official to that particular call.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

If two signals are given, then two fouls must be reported.......
Neither official is permitted to simply drop his signal and walk away.

This isn't like a blarge at all.

We have two officials who have signaled two different fouls on the same play, which by definition cannot occur on the same play, yet according to a certain case play we, depending on ones particular interpretation of this case play,
may/must report both fouls. Sounds eerily similar to me.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by just another ref

If you call a personal, he has no authority to set aside your call. Double whistle disagreement, according to all the blarge people, I guess you have to charge both.

Don't be .

You are twisting a simple situation into something that it isn't.

That concept is not applicable here.