What do you have... Strange play

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Juulie Downs

Hmmm.....

Gonna have to think about that a little. So I call it personal. P comes in and says, "Ball wasn't available yet, it's a T". Or we've got a double whistle, with P signalling the T. Is this just standard team disagreement? Someone gives, the other one takes it to the table?

If you call a personal, he has no authority to set aside your call. Double whistle disagreement, according to all the blarge people, I guess you have to charge both.

[Skarecrow]

Originally Posted by just another ref

If you call a personal, he has no authority to set aside your call. Double whistle disagreement, according to all the blarge people, I guess you have to charge both.

I am new to this board as you can tell from the number of postings, but I have to tell you, that here in Utah, we'd get slaughtered as refs if we dared to call a "blarge." That's like two cars crashing in the intersection...one has to be red and the other green...can't both be guilty of a foul on the same play.....at least, not in Northern Utah....

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Skarecrow

I am new to this board as you can tell from the number of postings, but I have to tell you, that here in Utah, we'd get slaughtered as refs if we dared to call a "blarge." That's like two cars crashing in the intersection...one has to be red and the other green...can't both be guilty of a foul on the same play.....at least, not in Northern Utah....

You're preaching to the choir here, my friend.

[Skarecrow]

Originally Posted by just another ref

You're preaching to the choir here, my friend.

Whew!!!! Thank you.....

[Juulie Downs]

But the blarge is completely irrelevant to the OP.

[Skarecrow]

Originally Posted by Juulie Downs

But the blarge is completely irrelevant to the OP.

You're right...I agree, but an interim post made reference to the blarge....so I interjected...sorry about that....

[Juulie Downs]

Originally Posted by Skarecrow

You're right...I agree, but an interim post made reference to the blarge....so I interjected...sorry about that....

So what about my double whistle scenario? Since new trail is the one who's supposed to count, does his T stand? Or the personal by the center who thinks the ball is available, but isn't looking for the count?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by just another ref

You're preaching to the choir here, my friend.

One person doesn't make it a choir. As much as I dislike the case ruling, I'd follow it in a game. I couldn't justify anything else. It's never happened to me, but I could see it happening considering how we tend to signal our blocks/PC fouls around here.

And the blarge has NOTHING to do with this play at all. Trying to make it so appears somewhat ignorant, IMO. There are plenty of times opposite signals could be given and we have to decide between the two -- the blarge just isn't one of them, BY CASE PLAY.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

As much as I dislike the case ruling, I'd follow it in a game. I couldn't justify anything else. It's never happened to me. There are plenty of times opposite signals could be given and we have to decide between the two, the blarge just isn't one of them, BY CASE PLAY.

I agree. I too have never seen a blarge in twenty-eight years, but because I have seen it discussed here, on exams, on other forums, and in the case play cited, it must have happened somewhere (but never in Northern Utah), sometime. If it ever happens in my game, and my mechanics, and a good pregame, for some reason don't prevent it, I'm calling it by the book.

4.19.8 SITUATION C: A1 drives for a try and jumps and releases the ball. Contact occurs between A1 and B1 after the release and before airborne shooter A1 returns one foot to the floor. One official calls a blocking foul on B1 and the other official calls a charging foul on A1. The try is successful. RULING: Even though airborne shooter A1 committed a charging foul, it is not a player-control foul because the two fouls result in a double personal foul. The double foul does not cause the ball to become dead on the try and the goal is scored. Play is resumed at the point of interruption, which is a throw-in for Team B from anywhere along the end line. (4-36)

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

One person doesn't make it a choir. As much as I dislike the case ruling, I'd follow it in a game. I couldn't justify anything else. It's never happened to me, but I could see it happening considering how we tend to signal our blocks/PC fouls around here.

And the blarge has NOTHING to do with this play at all. Trying to make it so appears somewhat ignorant, IMO. There are plenty of times opposite signals could be given and we have to decide between the two -- the blarge just isn't one of them, BY CASE PLAY.

This is kinda the point I was trying to make. The ONLY reason the blarge play can be a double foul is because there is a case play, not because a signal is irreversible.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by just another ref

This is kinda the point I was trying to make. The ONLY reason the blarge play can be a double foul is because there is a case play, not because a signal is irreversible.

I don't think anyone was arguing that, though.

I think this play could involve the C and T talking, although if I was the T and the C called a charging foul (not team control, since it's during a throw in), I would let it go. If asked, I would support the call, saying that the ball was available to the throw-in team, whether or not I'd started the count.

There is such a thing as a punishment fitting the crime and calling an intentional technical foul here does not seem to fit the situation, at all.

Personally, I do not know why the ruling bodies cling to the notion that the ball is dead between the goal and the ball being made available to the teams. Changing this would only change one thing, in my mind -- the right for the scoring team to call a time out in this interval and changing that wouldn't break my heart in the least bit.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Skarecrow

I am new to this board as you can tell from the number of postings, but I have to tell you, that here in Utah, we'd get slaughtered as refs if we dared to call a "blarge." That's like two cars crashing in the intersection...one has to be red and the other green...can't both be guilty of a foul on the same play.....at least, not in Northern Utah....

So in Northern Utah, when the lead blows his whistle, puts up a fist, puts his hand behind his head, and calls, "Player control", and at exactly the same time, the trail blows his whistle, puts up a fist, puts both hands on his hips, and calls, "Block", what do you do, by rule, next? And no fair answering that double whistles should have been covered in pregame, because even if it was, it happened, and now you have to deal with it, as NFHS rules dictate.

[Skarecrow]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

So in Northern Utah, when the lead blows his whistle, puts up a fist, puts his hand behind his head, and calls, "Player control", and at exactly the same time, the trail blows his whistle, puts up a fist, puts both hands on his hips, and calls, "Block", what do you do, by rule, next? And no fair answering that double whistles should have been covered in pregame, because even if it was, it happened, and now you have to deal with it, as NFHS rules dictate.

Reality....Pregame, we discuss the "blarge" and the double whistle, and after we quickly eyeball each other, the Trail will normally defer to the Lead, since the play is coming at him....and not show his foul signal....therefore, there might be a double whistle, but only one foul shown to the teams and the fans...Isn't it true that only one of them is wrong? You can't really have a block if the B Player has a LGP....If he moved into place too late, bang him with the block....My opinion, but again we don't "blarge" in my neck of the woods....

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Skarecrow

Reality....Pregame, we discuss the "blarge" and the double whistle, and after we quickly eyeball each other, the Trail will normally defer to the Lead, since the play is coming at him....and not show his foul signal....therefore, there might be a double whistle, but only one foul shown to the teams and the fans...Isn't it true that only one of them is wrong? You can't really have a block if the B Player has a LGP....If he moved into place too late, bang him with the block....My opinion, but again we don't "blarge" in my neck of the woods....

Almost everything you've stated is true. A good pregame, and an awareness that your partner also blew his whistle, and the patience to avoid preliminary signals, and to make eye contact, will all lead to the an avoidance of the blarge call. But you still haven't answered my question. You have two rookie officials working a freshman game, the lead and trail both blow their whistles at the same time, but due to the noise of the crowd, don't realize that two whistles have been blown. They also have eight players between them which prevents them from having eye contact with each other. Both present preliminary signals, one block, one charge, after which they realize that they haven't done what they talked about in pregame. What happens next, by rule, in Northern Utah?

[Juulie Downs]

Originally Posted by just another ref

If you call a personal, he has no authority to set aside your call. Double whistle disagreement, according to all the blarge people, I guess you have to charge both.

That's ridiculous. Can't call the same player for BOTH a personal AND a technical on the same play!! This isn't like a blarge at all. It's like a double whistle with one ref calling PC and the other a travel.