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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Fri Dec 12, 2008, 10:42pm
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What do you have... Strange play

JV Girls game.
Home team trails by one shooting one free throw off a old fashion 3 point play.
Home girl makes the free throw. I'm in the new trail after the free throw is made. The ball bounces 3 times and after 2 seconds or so i glance up the court. Girl from the Away team apparently was beyond half court for the free throw is running/jogging up the court to be the throw in person. Around the free throw line she PLOWS over the littlest girl on the other team.
It's not bad enough to be flag. foul.

What do you have?

One of the strangest plays i've seen.

What i think happended was the little girl who got plowed was face guarding not realizing the the ball wasn't attempting to be thrown in and the girl who was going to throw it in deciding plowing would be the best course of action.
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Old Sat Dec 13, 2008, 12:18am
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If I'm reading this right the ball is still dead as it's not at the disposal of the thrower. So unless it's intentional or flagrant it's nothing.
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Old Sat Dec 13, 2008, 12:23am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMUplayer View Post
What i think happended was the little girl who got plowed was face guarding not realizing the the ball wasn't attempting to be thrown in and the girl who was going to throw it in deciding plowing would be the best course of action.
The way I read this, it sure looks intentional to me. The call here would be an intentional technical foul. Two free throws (for any player) and the ball at the division line.
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Old Sat Dec 13, 2008, 07:38am
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Agreed, you must judge whether this was intentional or just dumb. Talk to dumb, penalize intentional, but do something with this.
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Old Sat Dec 13, 2008, 10:53am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tjones1 View Post
If I'm reading this right the ball is still dead as it's not at the disposal of the thrower. So unless it's intentional or flagrant it's nothing.
HTBT for this part. I may have started a count by this point, in which case it WOULD be at the disposal of the throw-in team.

In the real world, it would probably be called a personal foul, right or wrong.
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Old Sat Dec 13, 2008, 01:22pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichMSN View Post
HTBT for this part. I may have started a count by this point, in which case it WOULD be at the disposal of the throw-in team.

In the real world, it would probably be called a personal foul, right or wrong.

I agree. However, if the throwing team is hustling (as it sounds in the OP - and how I took it) back to make the throw-in and I don't think they are trying to delay I'm not going to start my count until it's at their disposal.
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Old Sat Dec 13, 2008, 06:03pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMUplayer View Post
The ball bounces 3 times and after 2 seconds or so
4-4-7d: A ball is at the disposal of a player when it is available to a player after a goal.


This is more than enough time to consider this ball available. The ball is live. Call it a personal foul.
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Old Sat Dec 13, 2008, 06:20pm
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Had partner started the count? Would that make a difference?
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Old Sat Dec 13, 2008, 06:50pm
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Originally Posted by Juulie Downs View Post
Had partner started the count? Would that make a difference?

I guess it depends whether you want to say that since the count had not started, the ball was not at the players disposal, or the ball had been available for "2 seconds or so" which makes it at their disposal whether the count had started or not.
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Old Sat Dec 13, 2008, 07:27pm
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Originally Posted by just another ref View Post
I guess it depends whether you want to say that since the count had not started, the ball was not at the players disposal, or the ball had been available for "2 seconds or so" which makes it at their disposal whether the count had started or not.
The referee judges when to start the count. At the point he starts the count, that is when the ball becomes live. It does make a difference in whether this foul gets called intentional personal or intentional technical.
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Last edited by Adam; Sat Dec 13, 2008 at 09:16pm.
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Old Sat Dec 13, 2008, 08:19pm
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Originally Posted by Snaqwells View Post
The referee judges when to start the count. At the point he starts the count, that is when the ball becomes live. It does make a difference in whether this foul gets called intentional personal or intentional technical.

Theoretically, the two events happen at the same time. But the fact is that the count should start when the ball becomes live, not that the start of the count makes the ball live. So, in this case, if the C makes the foul call, and is aware, which he should be, that the ball was indeed available, he can call a personal foul whether the T is counting or not.
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Old Sat Dec 13, 2008, 09:18pm
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Originally Posted by just another ref View Post
Theoretically, the two events happen at the same time. But the fact is that the count should start when the ball becomes live, not that the start of the count makes the ball live. So, in this case, if the C makes the foul call, and is aware, which he should be, that the ball was indeed available, he can call a personal foul whether the T is counting or not.
The ball is not live when it is available; it is live when it is at the disposal of the thrower. There is a big difference. The ball is not live until the moment the official determines the ball is at the disposal of the thrower; which coincidentally is the same exact moment he starts his count.

One does not cause the other, but both should begin, by rule, at the exact same moment.
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Old Sat Dec 13, 2008, 10:08pm
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Originally Posted by Snaqwells View Post
The ball is not live when it is available; it is live when it is at the disposal of the thrower. There is a big difference.
6-1-2b: The ball becomes live when on a throw-in, it is at the disposal of the thrower.

4-4-7b: A ball is at the disposal of a player when it is available to a player after a goal.




So the big difference is?
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Old Sat Dec 13, 2008, 10:44pm
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Originally Posted by just another ref View Post
6-1-2b: The ball becomes live when on a throw-in, it is at the disposal of the thrower.

4-4-7b: A ball is at the disposal of a player when it is available to a player after a goal.




So the big difference is?
That "available" isn't defined.
Interesting point, I guess I wasn't aware "available" was used. Since I didn't think it was there, I was thinking of the word in it's common everyday usage. IOW, the ball could be "available" to a player even though they were no where near it.

play: B1 gets a steal in A's front court and passes to B2 who is cherry-picking underneath B's basket. B2 scores quickly and the ball bounces under the basket. It's "available," yet I don't think anyone is going to start counting until A gets back to grab it and get out of bounds. We are supposed to start counting the moment it becomes available.

BTW, thanks for the correction on the term.
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Old Sat Dec 13, 2008, 11:19pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells View Post

play: B1 gets a steal in A's front court and passes to B2 who is cherry-picking underneath B's basket. B2 scores quickly and the ball bounces under the basket. It's "available," yet I don't think anyone is going to start counting until A gets back to grab it and get out of bounds. We are supposed to start counting the moment it becomes available.

I think this is a time when many officials are too generous in waiting to start the count. If all A's players are 50' away I think most of us will hold the count briefly, especially if one is hustling to get the ball. The problem I see is when B scores and presses and A is deliberately slow to pick up the ball, trying to allow themselves extra time to set up the press break, or sitting on a lead in the last minute of the game.
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