What do you have... Strange play

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

The referee judges when to start the count. At the point he starts the count, that is when the ball becomes live. It does make a difference in whether this foul gets called intentional personal or intentional technical.

Theoretically, the two events happen at the same time. But the fact is that the count should start when the ball becomes live, not that the start of the count makes the ball live. So, in this case, if the C makes the foul call, and is aware, which he should be, that the ball was indeed available, he can call a personal foul whether the T is counting or not.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Theoretically, the two events happen at the same time. But the fact is that the count should start when the ball becomes live, not that the start of the count makes the ball live. So, in this case, if the C makes the foul call, and is aware, which he should be, that the ball was indeed available, he can call a personal foul whether the T is counting or not.

The ball is not live when it is available; it is live when it is at the disposal of the thrower. There is a big difference. The ball is not live until the moment the official determines the ball is at the disposal of the thrower; which coincidentally is the same exact moment he starts his count.

One does not cause the other, but both should begin, by rule, at the exact same moment.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

The ball is not live when it is available; it is live when it is at the disposal of the thrower. There is a big difference.

6-1-2b: The ball becomes live when on a throw-in, it is at the disposal of the thrower.

4-4-7b: A ball is at the disposal of a player when it is available to a player after a goal.




So the big difference is?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

6-1-2b: The ball becomes live when on a throw-in, it is at the disposal of the thrower.

4-4-7b: A ball is at the disposal of a player when it is available to a player after a goal.




So the big difference is?

That "available" isn't defined.
Interesting point, I guess I wasn't aware "available" was used. Since I didn't think it was there, I was thinking of the word in it's common everyday usage. IOW, the ball could be "available" to a player even though they were no where near it.

play: B1 gets a steal in A's front court and passes to B2 who is cherry-picking underneath B's basket. B2 scores quickly and the ball bounces under the basket. It's "available," yet I don't think anyone is going to start counting until A gets back to grab it and get out of bounds. We are supposed to start counting the moment it becomes available.

BTW, thanks for the correction on the term.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

play: B1 gets a steal in A's front court and passes to B2 who is cherry-picking underneath B's basket. B2 scores quickly and the ball bounces under the basket. It's "available," yet I don't think anyone is going to start counting until A gets back to grab it and get out of bounds. We are supposed to start counting the moment it becomes available.

I think this is a time when many officials are too generous in waiting to start the count. If all A's players are 50' away I think most of us will hold the count briefly, especially if one is hustling to get the ball. The problem I see is when B scores and presses and A is deliberately slow to pick up the ball, trying to allow themselves extra time to set up the press break, or sitting on a lead in the last minute of the game.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I think this is a time when many officials are too generous in waiting to start the count. If all A's players are 50' away I think most of us will hold the count briefly, especially if one is hustling to get the ball. The problem I see is when B scores and presses and A is deliberately slow to pick up the ball, trying to allow themselves extra time to set up the press break, or sitting on a lead in the last minute of the game.

Most, maybe, but not me. I give them "reasonable time" to pick it up and then I start counting. I start about 1 or 2 a game before the player picks it up.

[Juulie Downs]

Originally Posted by just another ref

6-1-2b: The ball becomes live when on a throw-in, it is at the disposal of the thrower.

4-4-7b: A ball is at the disposal of a player when it is available to a player after a goal.

Thinking about how I"ve called this in the past, and the OP, I'd say the ball was probably "available" when the foul happened. However, whose judgment counts? If the new trail (on the endline) hasn't yet started the count, maybe he thinks it wasn't "available". So is it his opinion or mine?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Juulie Downs

Thinking about how I"ve called this in the past, and the OP, I'd say the ball was probably "available" when the foul happened. However, whose judgment counts? If the new trail (on the endline) hasn't yet started the count, maybe he thinks it wasn't "available". So is it his opinion or mine?

If you called the foul, I would say it's yours.

[Juulie Downs]

Originally Posted by just another ref

If you called the foul, I would say it's yours.

Hmmm.....

Gonna have to think about that a little. So I call it personal. P comes in and says, "Ball wasn't available yet, it's a T". Or we've got a double whistle, with P signalling the T. Is this just standard team disagreement? Someone gives, the other one takes it to the table?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Juulie Downs

Hmmm.....

Gonna have to think about that a little. So I call it personal. P comes in and says, "Ball wasn't available yet, it's a T". Or we've got a double whistle, with P signalling the T. Is this just standard team disagreement? Someone gives, the other one takes it to the table?

If you call a personal, he has no authority to set aside your call. Double whistle disagreement, according to all the blarge people, I guess you have to charge both.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

The ball is not live until the moment the official determines the ball is at the disposal of the thrower; which not coincidentally is the same exact moment he starts his count.

Fixed it for ya.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Fixed it for ya.

Maybe, but you eliminated my sarcasm.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Maybe, but you eliminated my sarcasm.

Well, it was unmarked.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Well, it was unmarked.

That's the best kind.