The judge to make the call?

[aschramm]

If theres anyone on here from Wisconsin, maybe you could help me out.

When I was younger (say 10-15 years ago), I remember at basketball games that teams would be announced, starting with the visitor and alternating with the home. V1 would get announced, go over and shake the opposing coach's hand, then stand at mid-court. Then H1 would get announced, shake V coach's hand, go to midcourt and shake V1's hand, then each would go near their free-throw line and wait for their teammates to go through the same procedure. However in recent memory I don't see that anymore. And actually, the WIAA (WI governing body) states on its website that all five V players should be announced first, then all 5 H players, with no seeking out for handshakes.

Anyway, just curious if it's only Wisconsin that has done this, or if it is part of the NFHS manuals.

[BillyMac]

Similar here in Connecticut, with the addition of the starters shaking the officials' hands also. More so with girls games, than boys. Varsity only. Pregame. We're in the locker room for post game activities.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by ;557576

If theres anyone on here from Wisconsin, maybe you could help me out.

When I was younger (say 10-15 years ago), I remember at basketball games that teams would be announced, starting with the visitor and alternating with the home. V1 would get announced, go over and shake the opposing coach's hand, then stand at mid-court. Then H1 would get announced, shake V coach's hand, go to midcourt and shake V1's hand, then each would go near their free-throw line and wait for their teammates to go through the same procedure. However in recent memory I don't see that anymore. And actually, the WIAA (WI governing body) states on its website that all five V players should be announced first, then all 5 H players, with no seeking out for handshakes.

Anyway, just curious if it's only Wisconsin that has done this, or if it is part of the NFHS manuals.

aschramm:

Pre-game "ceremonies" are not mandated or defined by the NFHS. Having said that, in Ohio and Michigan the pre-game "ceremonies" vary from school to school. Some altenate, some announce the visiting players first followed by the home players.

BUT the prohibition of player shaking hand before the game is sheer nonsense and stupid thinking by the powers that be. Since high school sports is supposed to be part of the educational process, then this type of prohibition is just plain stupid.

MTD, Sr.

[BayStateRef]

The judge ruled against the officials. Opening games in most leagues are Friday night. The officials have to hang around for the handshake.

After hearing arguments in a courtroom filled with referees, high school administrators and MIAA officials, Judge Christine M. Roach ruled against the MSBOA. During the two-hour hearing, the group argued that the new rule might cause physical harm, expose them to added liability and interfere with their contractual relations.

“The court respects the safety and reputation concerns expressed by the plaintiffs,” the judge wrote. “However, the court finds plaintiffs have not met their burden to demonstrate the required level of imminent, non speculative, substantial and irreparable harm to their physical, reputation, or financial interest …”

Worcester Telegram & Gazette Front Page News

[BillyMac]

A lot of things bother me about officials in Massachusetts "hanging around" to observe the post game handshake activity, but the thing that bothers me the most, from what I understand, and I may be wrong here, is that in Massachusetts, the officials' jurisdiction ends with the approval of the final score, not after they have left the visual confines of the gym. So, they're standing there with no authority, other than to contact the state governing body later on.

[BayStateRef]

The officials still have authority if a fight or other activity took place after the score is approved...but only under MIAA rules. The sanctions are strong -- game (or multiple game) suspensions for the participants.

The exact rule from the MIAA:

“Fighting and unsportsmanlike conduct penalties will be within the authority of the official at all times at the contest site. The official’s authority extends to pre and post game oversight.” Implementation of this rule could have future consequences on the offender, but does not affect the final score.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

A lot of things bother me about officials in Massachusetts "hanging around" to observe the post game handshake activity, but the thing that bothers me the most, from what I understand, and I may be wrong here, is that in Massachusetts, the officials' jurisdiction ends with the approval of the final score, not after they have left the visual confines of the gym. So, they're standing there with no authority, other than to contact the state governing body later on.

[Bad Zebra]

Leave it to the Commonwealth of Massachusetts to try to find a way to legislate sportsmanship.

This whole issue is one of the craziest things I have ever heard of with regards to high school officiating. Why stop there? Why not try to force it on the hundreds of colleges and their sports officials in the state as well? There's football, field hockey, lacrosse. Heck, why not Crew? That would be fun to watch at the end of the Head of the Charles.

[26 Year Gap]

Was the judge a friend of Billy Bulger? This is just nuts. It is like they want an incident to take place before they consider the problem.

[aschramm]

I don't especially like this (not that it matters, don't live in MA) because at the end of hotly contested games, you just stand there in the middle of the gym as an observer, with no authority like BillyMac just posted.

Even without this, I've never felt totally comfortable being out on the baseball diamond with teams exchanging handshakes. Sometimes when I'm base umpire I don't get in soon enough so the teams lineup and create a wall between me and the fence opening. Pretty awkward.

One more thing I don't like is the fact they put how much referees make per varsity contest. As if fans didn't already have enough "reasons" to not be happy with a performance, but to know how much they are making as well. (I typed with the quote to indicate that their reasons for heckling are almost always not valid)

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by BayStateRef

The officials still have authority if a fight or other activity took place after the score is approved...but only under MIAA rules. The sanctions are strong -- game (or multiple game) suspensions for the participants.

The exact rule from the MIAA:

“Fighting and unsportsmanlike conduct penalties will be within the authority of the official at all times at the contest site. The official’s authority extends to pre and post game oversight.” Implementation of this rule could have future consequences on the offender, but does not affect the final score.

BayStateRef:

The judge's statement that says the "official's (sic) authority extends to post-game oversight" proves that he has not read the NFHS Basketball Rules regarding the game officials authority. I am willing to bet dollars to donuts that he is not a sports official either. It is easy for this judge to put game officials in harms' way because he sits behind a large wood bar of justice protected by bailiffs and other court security personnel. I can assure you, that if he was to assume the game officials post-game duties, that the first time anybody accosted him he would do an 180 degree turn on his ruling.

MTD, Sr.

[JRutledge]

This kind of proves that states can do whatever the he!! they want to when it comes to mechanics or rules procedures.

Peace

[BayStateRef]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

BayStateRef:

The judge's statement that says the "official's (sic) authority extends to post-game oversight" proves that he has not read the NFHS Basketball Rules regarding the game officials authority. I am willing to bet dollars to donuts that he is not a sports official either. It is easy for this judge to put game officials in harms' way because he sits behind a large wood bar of justice protected by bailiffs and other court security personnel. I can assure you, that if he was to assume the game officials post-game duties, that the first time anybody accosted him he would do an 180 degree turn on his ruling.

MTD, Sr.

Mark,

The judge did not make that statement. As posted, it is the MIAA rule that gives the official this "authority." (Also...the judge is a she, not a he.)

Without getting too legal, the judge did not rule on the full merits of the case. Rather, she was asked to issue an injunction forbidding the handshake rule from taking effect when the season starts today. The legal standard for an injunction is much higher, requiring the officials to show that waiting for a full trial will cause "irreparable harm." As the judge said in her ruling, the officials failed to "demonstrate the required level of imminent, non speculative, substantial and irreparable harm to their physical, reputation, or financial interest."

As a varsity official, this affects me directly. I am comfortable there are enough "out" clauses that if I do not feel it is safe or if the school administration does not do its job, then I will not stay. I know there have been incidents and I am not trying to minimize them. But for me...and for many officials with whom I have spoken...this is not a big deal.

[ma_ref]

Season starts tonight. I'm sure most crews for tonight's games will stick around for the PGHS, due to the ruling last night. However, what will be more interesting is what happens when both officials don't stick around, or even more interesting, when 1 official refuses to stay and the other official wants to...

1 thing I didn't understand about the ruling was a quote from the MIAA's lawyer, who said that officials who don't stick around for the PGHS would be suspended. Suspended by who? MIAA doesn't have that kind of jurisdiction over officials, except by refusing them post-season tournament assignments. Local boards don't have that power either, as my board came right out and told us we're independent contractors and they can't suspend us for that reason.

The poo-poo is about to hit the fan. Strap yourself in folks, and get ready, cuz the already-bumpy ride is about to get bumpier!

[Rich]

Originally Posted by aschramm

If theres anyone on here from Wisconsin, maybe you could help me out.

When I was younger (say 10-15 years ago), I remember at basketball games that teams would be announced, starting with the visitor and alternating with the home. V1 would get announced, go over and shake the opposing coach's hand, then stand at mid-court. Then H1 would get announced, shake V coach's hand, go to midcourt and shake V1's hand, then each would go near their free-throw line and wait for their teammates to go through the same procedure. However in recent memory I don't see that anymore. And actually, the WIAA (WI governing body) states on its website that all five V players should be announced first, then all 5 H players, with no seeking out for handshakes.

Anyway, just curious if it's only Wisconsin that has done this, or if it is part of the NFHS manuals.

Just Wisconsin. And I disagree with MTD, Sr. I think it's a fine rule that prevents any pregame nonsense. If the starters want to shake hands, they're free to do so before the opening jump. The way we do it, we have the anthem, introduce 5 V starters, introduce 5 H starters, let's go.