You Make The Call

[whiskers_ump]

Runner on 2B, game in ITB, two out. 2-1 count. Next pitch
is a pitchout. Ball thrown very hard to the pitcher. Both
F6 and F4 breaking towards 2B yelling, "get the ball, "get the
ball". Runner on 2B is off the base about 5 steps trying to
locate the ball. She is standing there looking around, but
not moving in any direction. Pitcher just standing in the circle
making no movement.

What would you call? Will tell you what was called after a few
have replied. (No, I was not involved, merely watching and waiting
for my game.)

[Stat-Man]

I'll take a stab at this. Rule book is put away for the year, so I won't even look in there...

I think that I would have verbal obstruction and "award" the runner 2nd Base, mostly because I'm not sure if I could sell an advance to third in this situation.

[3afan]

do you have anything? the runner is allowed to stop and locate the ball so until she does then no LBR ...

[JEL]

Wow,

I would hate to give up the opportunity to get an out on this one. I like the verbal obstruction call, but that may be a stretch.

I'm going with 3afan, but not for the same reason. I have nothing due to the fact that F4 and F6, (F1 and F2 also) were making a play on the runner. I would let it play out.

[WestMichBlue]

"locate the ball?" I don't think so! The rule is based on the pitcher having the ball, not the runner "finding it." After stopping, the runner is supposed to "immediately" go back or go forward. I suspect that my "immediately" might be kind of long in this case. If the defensive coach objected, I would remind him that "immediate" is my judgment. (Of course, my judgment might be a little affected by his cheap trick.)

Verbal obstruction? Is there such a thing? Can you verbally impede the progress of a runner? I think that is a stretch. You have both verbal and physical actions by the defensive players, but they are not preventing the runner from reaching a base. Tricking her, maybe, but not hindering her.

If the runner allowed either of those fielders to get to 2B without her moving; and if the pitcher threw to 2B and the runner is tagged out I would have to allow the out.

Now if this team is full of dirty tricks, then when this one was pulled I might have an inadvertent time out to clean the plate. When the D-coach screams, I would apologize (“sorry, I knew the pitcher had the ball, and I didn’t realize the runner was still off the base”) but it’s too late now to correct.

Both the “immediate judgment” and the inadvertent T.O. would be a form of FYC and delivered in such a manner that the coach should get it.

WMB

[3afan]

when a runner walks, she is allowed to round first base, locate the ball, then make her go/nogo decision ... granted the time for her to locate the ball & make her decision is about a second to 2 seconds, depends on the umpire ... why else would the runner allowed the one stop? to tie her shoe? it may not say anything in the rule about the runner locating the ball but thats how our chapter teaches it and it helps with the LBR interpretation ... same for the girls rounding a base on a hit - they have to have the opportunity to find the ball and then make their decision

[CecilOne]

Originally posted by WestMichBlue
"locate the ball?" I don't think so! The rule is based on the pitcher having the ball, not the runner "finding it." After stopping, the runner is supposed to "immediately" go back or go forward. I suspect that my "immediately" might be kind of long in this case. If the defensive coach objected, I would remind him that "immediate" is my judgment. (Of course, my judgment might be a little affected by his cheap trick.)

Verbal obstruction? Is there such a thing? Can you verbally impede the progress of a runner? I think that is a stretch. You have both verbal and physical actions by the defensive players, but they are not preventing the runner from reaching a base. Tricking her, maybe, but not hindering her.

If the runner allowed either of those fielders to get to 2B without her moving; and if the pitcher threw to 2B and the runner is tagged out I would have to allow the out.

Now if this team is full of dirty tricks, then when this one was pulled I might have an inadvertent time out to clean the plate. When the D-coach screams, I would apologize (“sorry, I knew the pitcher had the ball, and I didn’t realize the runner was still off the base”) but it’s too late now to correct.

Both the “immediate judgment” and the inadvertent T.O. would be a form of FYC and delivered in such a manner that the coach should get it.

WMB

Thanks for saving me the time to type your first and third paragraphs (maybe fourth if I thought of it), especially "The rule is based on the pitcher having the ball, not the runner "finding it.".

Verbal OBS can happen and be called, but it better be blatant.

[Dakota]

Legal trickery is part of the game. I get annoyed (not saying ANY of you here fit this) when people think we should make some call against "deception" because it is "unfair."

I agree that the LBR goes into effect when the pitcher has the ball and is not making a play. The runner is allowed on stop in order to find the ball, but that is the reason she is allowed the stop - not the condition for when she must make a decision. I.e., if she cannot find the ball, she must still make a decision "immediately."

Since "immediately" is umpire judgment, I can go along with WMB's "long" judgment here, but I think I would have handled it one of two ways...

1) Runner out for LBR violation, (as I said, deception is part of the game), or

2) Runner is released from LBR since a play is being made on her. The fact that she did not realize a play was being made is irrelevant - you realized it. The pitcher's part in this play was to pretend there was not a play. "Any action" that causes the runner to react - this requirement was probably met here.

I like #2 better.

[Edited by Dakota on Oct 25th, 2004 at 10:37 AM]

[mcrowder]

To my mind, the actions of the fielders would constitute "making a play", and I would not LBR here. But if F4 or F6 got there and F1 threw the runner out, shame on the runner. No verbal obstruction.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by whiskers_ump
Runner on 2B, game in ITB, two out. 2-1 count. Next pitch
is a pitchout. Ball thrown very hard to the pitcher. Both
F6 and F4 breaking towards 2B yelling, "get the ball, "get the
ball". Runner on 2B is off the base about 5 steps trying to
locate the ball. She is standing there looking around, but
not moving in any direction. Pitcher just standing in the circle
making no movement.

What would you call? Will tell you what was called after a few
have replied. (No, I was not involved, merely watching and waiting
for my game.)

I just love it when people make up rules and interps to justify what they believe to be fair

Verbal obstruction? Please, how is chasing a phantom ball anything, but running around the field? Did the defense do anything to impede the progress of the runner? Obstruction, I don't think so.

Making a play? Where did that come from? It is the PITCHER who must make a play on any runner. According to the post, the pitch simply stood still in the circle with the ball in her possession. Doesn't sound like a play to me.

ASA 8.7.T.1 covers this play. The statue-like runner should be declared out.

As the umpire, I wouldn't be overly quick on this call, but I'm not going to just stand there and let it the runner just stand off the bag. Shame on the runner for not paying attention to the ball and shame on her coaches for not doing the same.

[whiskers_ump]

Mike hit it on the head.

Most answers given kept referring to a play being made.
Remember, the pitcher is the only one that could make a
play and release the runner from the LBR. She stood
motionless. I had never seen this play before but have
seen the chasing ball trick trying to get the runner off
far enough to be thrown out. The couple of times I had
seen it, pitcher turn around like she was looking for the
ball.

Sure there was deception, but nothing illegal.

Call on the field was LBR. They allowed the runner a little longer than I think I would have. 1001-02 is about all
she would have gotten from me.

[CecilOne]

The runner is allowed a stop because the runner can go in either direction (immediately) and therefore must be allowed to stop to choose or reverse directions. Finding the ball might be part of the process, but not part of the rule or the only reason for allowing a stop.

[Bagman62]

Reminds me of the old "hidden ball trick" in baseball. What was the coach looking at? This is where coaches can make a difference when they pay attention to what is going on ALL the time.

[SC Ump]

Originally posted by whiskers_ump
Both F6 and F4 breaking towards 2B yelling, "get the ball, "get the ball". Runner on 2B is off the base about 5 steps trying to locate the ball...

If the defensive team did a really, really good job on this, then I am not going to call anything. Why? Because, heck, I'm going to be looking for the ball, too.

However, if I saw the ball go back to the pitcher then the runner should have, also. They get no special consideration for being duped by the acting.

I agree with Irishmafia on this one. So now if it looks weird, we can now make up rules like verbal obstruction to cover anything we are not sure how to handle. I would have given the runner plenty of time to get back and if she didn't I got an out.