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Old Sun Nov 23, 2008, 02:18pm
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Offensive Foul Reminder

OK, I need my yearly reminder, when do we shoot and when do we NOT shoot on an offensive foul? NFHS please.
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Old Sun Nov 23, 2008, 02:25pm
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I Find This Thread Offensive ...

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Originally Posted by johnyd View Post
OK, I need my yearly reminder, when do we shoot and when do we NOT shoot on an offensive foul? NFHS please.
I don't believe that the NFHS defines an offensive foul. Do you mean a team control foul, or player control foul (player control fouls can actually be thought of as a subset of team control fouls)? Easy answer. You never shoot team control, and thus, player control fouls.

And remember, that under NFHS rules, there is no team control during a throwin, so any common foul that occurs before team control is established after a throwin, is a common foul that is handled like any other common foul; before bonus, bonus, or double bonus.
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Old Sun Nov 23, 2008, 02:38pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
I don't believe that the NFHS defines an offensive foul. Do you mean a team control foul, or player control foul (player control fouls can actually be thought of as a subset of team control fouls)? Easy answer. You never shoot team control, and thus, player control fouls.

And remember, that under NFHS rules, there is no team control during a throwin, so any common foul that occurs before team control is established after a throwin, is a common foul that is handled like any other common foul; before bonus, bonus, or double bonus.
What is the double bonus? I don't recall reading that in the book. I thought I did read automatic bonus, though.
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Old Sun Nov 23, 2008, 03:40pm
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Originally Posted by JugglingReferee View Post
What is the double bonus? I don't recall reading that in the book. I thought I did read automatic bonus, though.
Our local interpreter has told us, when we're shooting two shoots for a common foul on, or after, the tenth foul against the opponent, for the lead to verbalize, "Double bonus. Two shots", as he, or she, administers the first of the two free throws. We only do this the first time we reach the double bonus, for each team, in each half, a maximum or four times. Of course, I hope that we don't have to resort to doing this four times, or its been a long game, at least forty fouls called.
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Old Sun Nov 23, 2008, 03:40pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnyd View Post
OK, I need my yearly reminder, when do we shoot and when do we NOT shoot on an offensive foul? NFHS please.
Assuming you mean "team control" or "player control" by "offensive," the answer is never. The key is to know when there is player and team control. Whenever there is player control, you have Team control, so we can ignore the PC part for this discussion.

There is no team control during a throwin or a try for goal, and those are the two most common times (along with immediately after them prior to a team gaining control) when a team considered to be on "offense" will commit a foul that is not considered team control.
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Old Sun Nov 23, 2008, 03:48pm
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I Still Find This Thread Offensive ...

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Originally Posted by Snaqwells View Post
Assuming you mean "team control" or "player control" by "offensive," the answer is never. The key is to know when there is player and team control. Whenever there is player control, you have Team control, so we can ignore the PC part for this discussion.There is no team control during a throwin or a try for goal, and those are the two most common times (along with immediately after them prior to a team gaining control) when a team considered to be on "offense" will commit a foul that is not considered team control.
Good explanation Snaqwells.

I believe that the most common example of a team control foul, thus no free throws, involves an illegal screen. A1 dribbles his defender, B1, into screener A2, who moves to "hip" the defender, thus freeing A1 from his defender. Since A1 had player control at the time of the illegal screen, there was also team control, so B1 will not get to shoot free throws even if we were in the bonus, or double bonus (see my above post). Team B will get a throw in at the closest spot to the foul (not the closest spot to the ball).
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Old Sun Nov 23, 2008, 03:49pm
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Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Good explanation Snaqwells.

I believe that the most common example of a team control foul, thus no free throws, involves an illegal screen. A1 dribbles his defender, B1, into screener A2, who moves to "hip" the defender, thus freeing A1 from his defender. Since A1 had player control at the time of the illegal screen, there was also team control, so B1 will not get to shoot free throws even if we were in the bonus, or double bonus (see my above post). Team B will get a throw in at the closest spot to the foul (not the closest spot to the ball).
Next common would be the pass and crash; no player control, but team control is continuous on a pass.
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Old Sun Nov 23, 2008, 04:03pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ;552632
Next common would be the pass and crash; no player control, but team control is continuous on a pass.
Wow. That's amazing. Wow, again.

And I no longer find this thread offensive. It's become interesting. This is getting me ready for my first high school scrimmages next week. Nice job Snaqwells. Keep up the good work. Even us veterans need reminders every once in a while.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 04:05pm.
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Old Sun Nov 23, 2008, 05:00pm
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The question is why we still have player control fouls. The player with control is part of the team with control, the penalty is the same, so..........
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Old Sun Nov 23, 2008, 05:17pm
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Originally Posted by just another ref View Post
The question is why we still have player control fouls. The player with control is part of the team with control, the penalty is the same, so.
Good question. I've wondered the same thing myself. Is there a real need for both? Seriously. Inquiring minds want to know.
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Old Sun Nov 23, 2008, 06:03pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref View Post
The question is why we still have player control fouls. The player with control is part of the team with control, the penalty is the same, so..........
Not quite...a PC foul cancels a made basket even if the try is in flight. A team control foul while a try is in flight does not cancel a made basket.
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Old Sun Nov 23, 2008, 06:10pm
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Originally Posted by jdw3018 View Post
Not quite. A PC foul cancels a made basket even if the try is in flight. A team control foul while a try is in flight does not cancel a made basket.

Nice catch jdw3018. This won't make me, or Arsenio, go hmmmm anymore.
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Old Sun Nov 23, 2008, 06:52pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdw3018 View Post
Not quite...a PC foul cancels a made basket even if the try is in flight. A team control foul while a try is in flight does not cancel a made basket.
But you can't have team control while a try is in flight, thus no team control fouls after the ball is released on a try.
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Old Sun Nov 23, 2008, 07:26pm
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The Plot Thickens ...

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Originally Posted by zm1283 View Post
But you can't have team control while a try is in flight, thus no team control fouls after the ball is released on a try.
A1 shoots, ball is in flight, A2 fouls B1 during boxing out action, ball does/doesn't go in, no team control foul, B1 shoots free throws down the other end if Team B is in the bonus, or double bonus.

Sounds good to me. Nice job zm1283. So, again, is there a need to distinguish between a player control foul and a team control foul? We go back to this being a thing that make you go hmmmm...
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Old Sun Nov 23, 2008, 09:15pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zm1283 View Post
But you can't have team control while a try is in flight, thus no team control fouls after the ball is released on a try.
Quite excellent point. And again, an even better reason to have a separate definition for player control fouls.
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