Offensive or defensive foul?

[Wondering]

Our local officials have differences in interpretation of whether certain contact is an offensive or defensive foul - i.e., interpretation of NFHS Rule 10-6 Art 1 & 2 and the Note under Art 3 that describes a "guarding position".

In particular, we've had a running debate about whether a defensive player can be fouled by the offense if the defender has not first obtained the "guarding position" described in the Note.

For example, defender A1 is jogging straight downcourt toward B's basket. B1 dribbles towards his basket from behind A1 and due to defensive pressure by A2, B1 is distracted and inadvertently runs into the back of A1. Since A1 has his back turned, he is not in a "guarding position". Is this a foul on A1 or B1?

A second example is when A1 loses the ball to B1 and then A1 also slips and falls. B1, dribbling the ball, now changes direction to head back towards his basket. B1 tries to leap over prone A1, just as A1 starts to rise into a standing position. Who is at fault? What is A1's "spot on the floor" that he is entitled to and above what part of the floor is his vertical space? Above his feet?

The first line of the 10-6 Art 3 note implies that either defensive or offensive player could be at fault in these situations where there's no "guarding position" obtained and it's up to the official to use his judgement.

After that, the Note goes on to describe "guarding position" and how once this is obtained, the foul is presumed on the offense.

Do you experienced Refs require a guarding position before you will call an offensive foul (I'm not talking about screens here)??? If not, what guidelines do you follow???

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Wondering
Our local officials have differences in interpretation of whether certain contact is an offensive or defensive foul - i.e., interpretation of NFHS Rule 10-6 Art 1 & 2 and the Note under Art 3 that describes a "guarding position".

In particular, we've had a running debate about whether a defensive player can be fouled by the offense if the defender has not first obtained the "guarding position" described in the Note.

Sure he can.

For example, defender A1 is jogging straight downcourt toward B's basket. B1 dribbles towards his basket from behind A1 and due to defensive pressure by A2, B1 is distracted and inadvertently runs into the back of A1. Since A1 has his back turned, he is not in a "guarding position". Is this a foul on A1 or B1?

First, when you're discussing plays, the team with the ball is A and the defense is B. You'll create less confusion if you stick to that simple rule.

Now, unless B1 knocked A1 down, I'm probably not going to call anything. But just because the defender is running down the floor doesn't mean that the dribbler can just run over him.

A second example is when A1 loses the ball to B1 and then A1 also slips and falls. B1, dribbling the ball, now changes direction to head back towards his basket. B1 tries to leap over prone A1, just as A1 starts to rise into a standing position. Who is at fault? What is A1's "spot on the floor" that he is entitled to and above what part of the floor is his vertical space? Above his feet?

Honestly, I think you're worrying about things that will never happen. I've never seen a dribbler leap over a player who was sitting on the floor. In most cases, this is just going to be incidentally contact unless one player obviously fouls the other.

The first line of the 10-6 Art 3 note implies that either defensive or offensive player could be at fault in these situations where there's no "guarding position" obtained and it's up to the official to use his judgement.

After that, the Note goes on to describe "guarding position" and how once this is obtained, the foul is presumed on the offense.

Which is basically what I said above. You have to determine if either player has been placed at a disadvantage.

Do you experienced Refs require a guarding position before you will call an offensive foul (I'm not talking about screens here)??? If not, what guidelines do you follow???

In most cases, you're not going to call a player control foul unless the defender has established a guarded position.

[Kelvin green]

Basketball fundamentals require that each player is entitled to a spot as long as the player was there first (screening action requires additional steps) However if A runs over B who was legally entitled to the spot on the floor, A has committed a foul. So to answer your first question can there be a foul called with out establishig leagal guarding position? Yes! and you need to have the guts to amke the call. I can just see a game where defense has turned and faced the basket and a player crashes into his back from behind and we call the foul on the defense because he did not have legal guarding position. Make that call and there will be at least one ejection.

You ansered your own question, when there is no legal guarding position foul can go either way depending on other rules, (screening, player entitled to a spot) but when there is legal guarding position and the defense has maintained it, the responsibility for the foul lies with the offense. I think block/charges are the easiest calls in the game, but you have to referee the defense to know what's happening. Once you do that the Block/Charge is the easiest call. Once you have done that right the second easiest call is the one that looks like a letter from the alphabet on the coach.

On your second play, I would have to see it, dont think I'll ever see it and I agree with BktBallRef that if it did occur it might be incidental, it could be tripping depending o how the player is getting up, or it could be on the dribbler for being stupid for going over another player. I would lean toward the call for being stupid and protect the player on the floor (unless the player on the floor was malicious)

[Stripes130]

How about the defense who is backing with the dribbler and the dribbler picks up speed and runs him over?

[Just Curious]

Originally posted by Stripes130
How about the defense who is backing with the dribbler and the dribbler picks up speed and runs him over?

I have an offensive foul......
Chuck

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Stripes130
How about the defense who is backing with the dribbler and the dribbler picks up speed and runs him over?

It would depend upon whether the defender initially established a legally guarded position or not.

[Rookie]

Honestly, I think you're worrying about things that will never happen.

Famous Last words...

[Just Curious]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

It would depend upon whether the defender initially established a legally guarded position or not.

Initially??? ....... If the defense has established position through speed and plane (the direction of travel), "Backing with the dribbler", and gets run over by the offense because he/she either shifted gears to gain more speed or simply turned into the defense because it was a more direct route to the hoop.... where does an initial legal guarding position begin?? (Awful Grammar... Sorry) What would this initial legal guarding position look like?
Chuck

[Just Curious]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

It would depend upon whether the defender initially established a legally guarded position or not.

Honestly, I think you're worrying about things that will never happen.


BktBallRef.... Never say never! 1036 posts... pretty impressive!
Chuck

[PAULK1]

To obtain a legal guarding position you must have 2 feet on the floor and facing the opponent distance is not a factor

[rainmaker]

With regard to the original question about the dribbler running into the defender who was in front of him (defender not facing)...

Isn't there a sentence somewhere about the player behind another player having greater responsibility...?

Or is that in the drivers' manual...

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by rainmaker
With regard to the original question about the dribbler running into the defender who was in front of him (defender not facing)...

Isn't there a sentence somewhere about the player behind another player having greater responsibility...?

Or is that in the drivers' manual...

The sentence is in 10-6-2d.

Also, the original post had a situation about a player on the floor. 10.6.1E deals with that.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Just Curious
Initially??? ....... If the defense has established position through speed and plane (the direction of travel), "Backing with the dribbler", and gets run over by the offense because he/she either shifted gears to gain more speed or simply turned into the defense because it was a more direct route to the hoop.... where does an initial legal guarding position begin?? (Awful Grammar... Sorry) What would this initial legal guarding position look like?
Chuck

Hmmm....where does the rulebook say that a defender can establish a legal position with speed and plane? A defender can't just run alongside a dribbler and suddenly gain position. An initial guarded postion begins where it always begins: Both feet on the floor with the torso facing the opponent.

Originally posted by Rookie

Famous Last words...

Ah, but you took it out of context. I went on to say that I've never seen a dribbler leap over a player who was sitting on the floor. I haven't and don't expect to. But if I or anyone else does, we just need to judge if anyone was placed at a disadvantage or if the contact was incidental. I think the casebook backs me up, according to Bob, that this is probably going to be incdental contact.

There's no sense in worrying about such things. We can post crazy plays that we've dreamed up all day. But inexperienced officials need to concentrate on gaining a basic understanding of the definitions, rules, mechanics, and maybe most importantly, not to look for things to call.

But I'll change the statement if needed. "Honestly, I think you're worrying about things that will probably never happen."

[Just Curious]

Originally posted by rainmaker
With regard to the original question about the dribbler running into the defender who was in front of him (defender not facing)...

Isn't there a sentence somewhere about the player behind another player having greater responsibility...?

Or is that in the drivers' manual...

That's funny!
"California's Guide to Driving It's Freeways", published by Rand McNalley and I'm sure one can find it in any Wal-Mart.
Chuck

[Stripes130]

You mean Californians actually do get manuals to read....not that AZ is that great either.
Hey I think I just figured it out, the dumbest drivers are also the worst coaches. I knew there couldn't be THAT many stupid people in this world. they're one and the same.
anybody listen to country comedian Bill Engvall?
Heeere's your sign.