legal or illegal dribble

[Back In The Saddle]

This falls squarely under rule 11-1. Not a dribble. Don't go there.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by mick

Scrapper1,
From U.P. here, it looks like putting the ball on the floor and releasing it may be the start of a dribble, and the subsequent *picking up* may be the end of the dribble.

Why? When was the ball batted or pushed to the floor? 4-15-1

[BillyMac]

NFHS 4.15.Comment: Is is not a dribble when the player stands still and holds the ball and touches it to the floor once or more than once.

[mick]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Why? When was the ball batted or pushed to the floor? 4-15-1

Originally Posted by BillyMac

NFHS 4.15.Comment: Is is not a dribble when the player stands still and holds the ball and touches it to the floor once or more than once.

Then it is a dribble when no longer holding...?

Scrapper1,
The player pushed it [away from himself] to the floor. He did not bat it, pull it, or hold it. He pushed it.
If releasing the ball don't make no nevermind, why in the world would it be included in the wording ?
Sell me.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by mick

Scrapper1,
The player pushed it [away from himself] to the floor.

This is simply a difference of opinion, I guess. I would say that the player placed it on the floor. It doesn't seem to me that he pushed it anywhere.

[mick]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

This is simply a difference of opinion, I guess. I would say that the player placed it on the floor. It doesn't seem to me that he pushed it anywhere.

push: transitive verb

• 1 a: to press against with force in order to drive or impel b: to move or endeavor to move away or ahead by steady pressure without striking
• 2 a: to thrust forward, downward, or outward

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by mick

Then it is a dribble when no longer holding...?

Scrapper1,
The player pushed it [away from himself] to the floor. He did not bat it, pull it, or hold it. He pushed it.
If releasing the ball don't make no nevermind, why in the world would it be included in the wording ?
Sell me.

Push: to press upon or against (a thing) with force in order to move it away. "To the floor" indicates motion in a direction, and describes a dynamic relationship between the ball and floor.

Newton would insist that one property of an object that is being/has been pushed is that it continues in motion, in the same direction, once the motivating force is removed.

OTOH, the OP said "A1 places the ball on the floor". Place indicates an object has been moved, in a completely controlled manner, to a new location without imparting independent force to it. An object that has been placed will not continue in motion. "On the floor" indicates a location without implying motion, it describes static relationship.

Which one of those actions actually describes a dribble? Imparting a force to the ball, putting it in motion toward the floor, removing the force at some point while the ball continues in motion, where it will participate in a dynamic relationship with the floor...or...Moving the ball, in a controlled manner, to a new location on the floor, where it remains motionless?

Pushing the ball to the floor, is a very different act than placing the ball on the floor. To argue that placing is a form of pushing is wrong.

[Nevadaref]

Don't bother, mick. He's just being argumentative, obstinate, and pertinatious.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

Push: to press upon or against (a thing) with force in order to move it away. "To the floor" indicates motion in a direction, and describes a dynamic relationship between the ball and floor.

Newton would insist that one property of an object that is being/has been pushed is that it continues in motion, in the same direction, once the motivating force is removed.

OTOH, the OP said "A1 places the ball on the floor". Place indicates an object has been moved to a new location without imparting independent force to it. An object that has been placed will not continue in motion. "On the floor" indicates a location without implying motion, it describes static relationship.

Pushing the ball to the floor, is a very different act than placing the ball on the floor. To argue that placing is a form of pushing is wrong.

Complete doodoo.

So you are going to contend that no force was applied and that there was no motion involved in getting the ball to that location? How ridiculous.

Also, there are two forces at work in your "static relationship." Gravity is exerting a downward force on the ball which is being met by an equal and opposite upward force from the floor. So take that, Mr. Science Guy.

[mick]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

To argue that placing is a form of pushing is wrong.

I think the only arguing about 'put' and 'place' are your voices.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

So you are going to contend that no force was applied and that there was no motion involved in getting the ball to that location? How ridiculous.

Look, if simply applying a downward force met the definition of "pushing the ball to the floor", then holding the ball and touching to the floor would be a dribble, wouldn't it? You're pushing the ball to the floor, and the ball strikes the floor. That's got to be a dribble. But the rules specifically tell us it's not. So your version of "pushing" doesn't meet the requirement of a dribble.

[mick]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Look, if simply applying a downward force met the definition of "pushing the ball to the floor", then holding the ball and touching to the floor would be a dribble, wouldn't it? You're pushing the ball to the floor, and the ball strikes the floor. That's got to be a dribble. But the rules specifically tell us it's not. So your version of "pushing" doesn't meet the requirement of a dribble.

...Rhetoric, Scrapper1.

Please explain the requirement of holding the ball versus not holding the ball in the sitch.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Look, if simply applying a downward force met the definition of "pushing the ball to the floor", then holding the ball and touching to the floor would be a dribble, wouldn't it? You're pushing the ball to the floor, and the ball strikes the floor. That's got to be a dribble. But the rules specifically tell us it's not. So your version of "pushing" doesn't meet the requirement of a dribble.

By making that argument you are failing to acknowledge that one of the implied tenents of the definition of a dribble is that the ball must be released--contact with the hand must cease.

That is not directly stated in 4-15, but the final sentence of 4.15 Comment let's us know that information.

Furthermore, your whole argument centering on a lack of pushing the ball TO THE FLOOR is silly because one could argue the same thing about pushing or throwing the ball straight up into the air and then allowing it to bounce on the floor. One could contend that the player pushed it towards the ceiling and not the floor, so it doesn't meet the definition of a dribble. Silliness.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Complete doodoo.

So you are going to contend that no force was applied and that there was no motion involved in getting the ball to that location? How ridiculous.

Also, there are two forces at work in your "static relationship." Gravity is exerting a downward force on the ball which is being met by an equal and opposite upward force from the floor. So take that, Mr. Science Guy.

Beyond doodoo. Reading is so fundamental.

No. I am contending that in the act of "placing" the ball "on the floor" there is no force imparted to the ball by the player. Any motion is a consequence of the ball being at rest in the player's hands while they are in motion. At any point along the path to the floor, if the player's hands stop moving, so does the ball.

This is completely different than "pushing" the ball "to the floor" which does impart a force to the ball, setting the ball in motion independently of the player's hands. Thus the ball continues in motion when when the hand stops pushing.

The argument was being made that "placing" or "putting" the ball "on the floor" was the same as "pushing" the ball "to the floor". But it ain't so. Simply placing the ball on the floor does not meet the definition of a dribble.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

Beyond doodoo. Reading is so fundamental.

No. I am contending that in the act of "placing" the ball "on the floor" there is no force imparted to the ball by the player. Any motion is a consequence of the ball being at rest in the player's hands while they are in motion. At any point along the path to the floor, if the player's hands stop moving, so does the ball.

This is completely different than "pushing" the ball "to the floor" which does impart a force to the ball, setting the ball in motion independently of the player's hands. Thus the ball continues in motion when when the hand stops pushing.

The argument was being made that "placing" or "putting" the ball "on the floor" was the same as "pushing" the ball "to the floor". But it ain't so. Simply placing the ball on the floor does not meet the definition of a dribble.

Lah me. This kind of thinking is the reason that we needed a rule change to tell us that a THROWN ball from behind the 3 point line was worth three points when it entered the basket.

BTW it has already been mentioned, but dropping the ball from waist height and allowing it to fall to the floor due to gravity, doesn't impart a force from the player's hands to the ball either. I guess you don't think that is a dribble.