Delayed Delayed violation?

[OHBBREF]

The ball is at the disposal of free thrower A1. B1 steps into the
lane, and the official gives the delayed violation signal. A1 then
requests a timeout. When the team returns to the free throw after
the timeout, the official puts the ball at the disposal of A1 and
again gives the delayed violation signal. The free throw is missed
by A1, and the official awards a repeated free throw.
Correct?

[jdmara]

Originally Posted by OHBBREF

The ball is at the disposal of free thrower A1. B1 steps into the
lane, and the official gives the delayed violation signal. A1 then
requests a timeout. When the team returns to the free throw after
the timeout, the official puts the ball at the disposal of A1 and
again gives the delayed violation signal. The free throw is missed
by A1, and the official awards a repeated free throw.
Correct?

I don't have any case to back it up but I would not give a substitute free throw. Once a time out is called, the ball becomes dead with the whistle thus the free throw has ended. After the timeout, the free throw is administered and the ball is made live again. I don't believe violations would carry over.

Just my opinion though. Great question

-Josh

[Adam]

I belive there's a case play on this that states the violation is carried over. Otherwise, A1 pays for the timeout by freeing B1 from a penalty from a violation.

[jdmara]

[QUOTE=Snaqwells;550418]I belive there's a case play on this that states the violation is carried over. Otherwise, A1 pays for the timeout by freeing B1 from a penalty from a violation.[/QUOTE

A1 should know that he has a substitute freethrow coming if he misses and should shoot the ball. I'm searching for a case play without much luck. I'm interested to see the result of this discussion

-Josh

[jdmara]

9.1.3 SITUATION C: A1 is preparing to attempt a free throw. Prior to A1’s
release of the ball, B1 fakes causing A2 to enter the lane prematurely. A1 then
requests and is granted a time-out. RULING: Upon resuming play, A1 is entitled
to a free throw and the official shall use the proper signal indicating a violation by B1 prior to the granting of the time-out. If the free throw is successful, the violation is ignored, if unsuccessful a substitute throw is awarded. (9-1-3b)


I stand corrected...hmmm

-Josh

[Adam]

Originally Posted by jdmara

9.1.3 SITUATION C: A1 is preparing to attempt a free throw. Prior to A1’s
release of the ball, B1 fakes causing A2 to enter the lane prematurely. A1 then
requests and is granted a time-out. RULING: Upon resuming play, A1 is entitled
to a free throw and the official shall use the proper signal indicating a violation by B1 prior to the granting of the time-out. If the free throw is successful, the violation is ignored, if unsuccessful a substitute throw is awarded. (9-1-3b)


I stand corrected...hmmm

-Josh

I was just about to send you here. But you've already found it.

[OHBBREF]

Originally Posted by jdmara

9.1.3 SITUATION C: A1 is preparing to attempt a free throw. Prior to A1’s
release of the ball, B1 fakes causing A2 to enter the lane prematurely. A1 then
requests and is granted a time-out. RULING: Upon resuming play, A1 is entitled
to a free throw and the official shall use the proper signal indicating a violation by B1 prior to the granting of the time-out. If the free throw is successful, the violation is ignored, if unsuccessful a substitute throw is awarded. (9-1-3b)


I stand corrected...hmmm

-Josh

You are correct but I do not believe that case play is the correct one,
This one actually comes from the NCAA case book

RULING: The official is correct. Even though a timeout was taken by
Team A, it does not negate the violation by B1.
(Rule 9-2.2.b)
When a violation is by the free-throwers opponent only:
b. When the try is not successful, the ball shall become dead when the free throw ends and a substitute free throw shall be attempted by the same free thrower under the same conditions as those of the original free throw.

[ajs8207]

Originally Posted by OHBBREF

You are correct but I do not believe that case play is the correct one,
This one actually comes from the NCAA case book

RULING: The official is correct. Even though a timeout was taken by
Team A, it does not negate the violation by B1.
(Rule 9-2.2.b)
When a violation is by the free-throwers opponent only:
b. When the try is not successful, the ball shall become dead when the free throw ends and a substitute free throw shall be attempted by the same free thrower under the same conditions as those of the original free throw.

So is this the FED interpretation as well?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by jdmara

9.1.3 SITUATION C: A1 is preparing to attempt a free throw. Prior to A1’s
release of the ball, B1 fakes causing A2 to enter the lane prematurely. A1 then
requests and is granted a time-out. RULING: Upon resuming play, A1 is entitled
to a free throw and the official shall use the proper signal indicating a violation by B1 prior to the granting of the time-out. If the free throw is successful, the violation is ignored, if unsuccessful a substitute throw is awarded. (9-1-3b)


I stand corrected...hmmm

-Josh

Josh, did you find this in the rule book or on the website?

[jdmara]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Josh, did you find this in the rule book or on the website?

2008-2009 Casebook page 67

-Josh

[Adam]

Originally Posted by OHBBREF

You are correct but I do not believe that case play is the correct one,
This one actually comes from the NCAA case book

RULING: The official is correct. Even though a timeout was taken by
Team A, it does not negate the violation by B1.
(Rule 9-2.2.b)
When a violation is by the free-throwers opponent only:
b. When the try is not successful, the ball shall become dead when the free throw ends and a substitute free throw shall be attempted by the same free thrower under the same conditions as those of the original free throw.

Why don't you think it's the correct case play?

Originally Posted by ajs8207

So is this the FED interpretation as well?

Yes, it's the same in FED.

Originally Posted by jdmara

2008-2009 Casebook page 67

-Josh

Thanks, Josh.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by jdmara

I don't have any case to back it up but I would not give a substitute free throw. Once a time out is called, the ball becomes dead with the whistle thus the free throw has ended. After the timeout, the free throw is administered and the ball is made live again. I don't believe violations would carry over.

Just my opinion though. Great question

-Josh

Although there are some specific rules that permit taking a time out to "buy" a player back into the game (for blood or injury), the granting of a time out never uncalls any violation or foul nor does it ever cancel any penalty.

I have occasionally seen posts here that tried to say that if the defense violates on a free throw it's not a violation unless the shot is missed. That is absolutely not true. When B1 stepped into the lane, he violated. The penalty for that violation includes waiting to see if the free thrower makes the shot. If he does, "the violation is disregarded" (NFHS 9-1 Penalties 2-a)

There's nothing about granting a time out that undoes B1's violation, nor does it set aside the penalty. It merely delays the enforcement of the penalty for 30 or 60 seconds.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

Although there are some specific rules that permit taking a time out to "buy" a player back into the game (for blood or injury), the granting of a time out never uncalls any violation or foul nor does it ever cancel any penalty.

I have occasionally seen posts here that tried to say that if the defense violates on a free throw it's not a violation unless the shot is missed. That is absolutely not true. When B1 stepped into the lane, he violated. The penalty for that violation includes waiting to see if the free thrower makes the shot. If he does, "the violation is disregarded" (NFHS 9-1 Penalties 2-a)

There's nothing about granting a time out that undoes B1's violation, nor does it set aside the penalty. It merely delays the enforcement of the penalty for 30 or 60 seconds.

I wonder if BadNewsRef would insist that the violation occurs when the thrower's attempt is unsuccessful.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I wonder if BadNewsRef would insist that the violation occurs when the thrower's attempt is unsuccessful.

Apples and oranges, but nice try.

If we ever get a "delayed travel" mechanic then we can revisit.

[OHBBREF]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Why don't you think it's the correct case play?

Because If A2 steps in the lane you have an offensive violation and the violation is called immediately
However you are penalizing the fake by B2 that cuased the violation,
I do not think you delay the throw until after A1 shoots.