Is this correct?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

What exactly do you mean by that?

I meant it literally.

FC and BC are only significant once team control has been established.

Unless you can show me a rule which refers to FC or BC when there is no team control. You have been known to prove me wrong before on rules; got something?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I meant it literally.

FC and BC are only significant once team control has been established.

I just wished to check that you weren't saying that FC and BC status didn't exist without team control. The FC/BC status of a player or the ball may be not matter most of the time without team control, but does exist and can certainly be determined.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Unless you can show me a rule which refers to FC or BC when there is no team control. You have been known to prove me wrong before on rules; got something?

Ok, now you really made me think about this one, and the best that I can do is come up with some plays in which either the location of the players or the ball matters to the subsequent administration of the game, but during which there was no team control. However, whether that location is FC or BC isn't really important. All that is important is that the rules instruct us to go to a point nearest that location. So I guess that I have to agree with your contention that FC/BC distinction isn't important on plays where team control doesn't exist, as long as we acknowledge that there is independent relevance to the location of the players and the ball and that location can impact the administration of the game.

Consider these plays:
1. A1 has the ball for a throw-in along the endline following a goal by Team B. He tries to throw the ball the length of the floor to A2, but B3 standing in the FT lane (a) nearest Team B's basket, (b) near the division line, or (c) nearest Team A's basket kicks the ball. Where's the new throw-in location?

2. With only six seconds remaining in the game and the score tied, Team A has an endline throw-in. A1's throw-in pass is immediately deflected by B1 who is standing near the endline in the backcourt of Team A. The ball continues to midcourt where A3 and B3 commit a double personal foul while going for the ball, but before either player is able to touch it. The official sounds the whistle for the double foul with two seconds left. How is the game resumed?

3. B1 attempts a long throw-in pass from a designated spot near the FT line extended in his backcourt. The pass is deflected near the point of origin by A2 who is standing inbounds near the thrower, but the ball continues in flight and strikes the backboard of Team B. The official inadvertently sounds the whistle. The AP arrow favors Team B. When play resumes who get the ball and from where is the ensuing throw-in?

[OHBBREF]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Consider these plays:
1. A1 has the ball for a throw-in along the endline following a goal by Team B. He tries to throw the ball the length of the floor to A2, but B3 standing in the FT lane (a) nearest Team B's basket, (b) near the division line, or (c) nearest Team A's basket kicks the ball. Where's the new throw-in location?

Since the kick is not a legal touch the team A throw in never ended so the ball should be inbounded on the base line in all cases with the right to run the endline since the throw in is after a made goal.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

2. With only six seconds remaining in the game and the score tied, Team A has an endline throw-in. A1's throw-in pass is immediately deflected by B1 who is standing near the endline in the backcourt of Team A. The ball continues to midcourt where A3 and B3 commit a double personal foul while going for the ball, but before either player is able to touch it. The official sounds the whistle for the double foul with two seconds left. How is the game resumed?

The Team A throw in ended with the legal touch by B1, you would resume with the appropriate restart for a double foul in in both NFHS and NCAA.
the difference being that there is team control during a throw-in in the NCAA so there would be POI to restart play. So the ball would be inbounded near mid-court spot throwin nearest the double foul for team A
I believe it is POI for NFHS too, but on a double foul since there is no team control here you go to the AP. the inbound would be spot nearest foul call.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

3. B1 attempts a long throw-in pass from a designated spot near the FT line extended in his backcourt. The pass is deflected near the point of origin by A2 who is standing inbounds near the thrower, but the ball continues in flight and strikes the backboard of Team B. The official inadvertently sounds the whistle. The AP arrow favors Team B. When play resumes who get the ball and from where is the ensuing throw-in?

The Team B throw in ends when the ball is legally touched by A2 the ball striking the backboard should be irrelivant since the backboard in the back court is the same as the floor (for team B).
NCAA there is is team control during a throw in so Team B gets the ball POI on the end line spot throw in nearest where the ball hit the backboard.
NFHS there is no team control during a throw in so since the throw in ended there is still no team conrol when the inadvertant whistle was blown go to AP inbound end line spot throw in nearest where ball hit backboard.

[zm1283]

Originally Posted by OHBBREF

The Team A throw in ended with the legal touch by B1, you would resume with the appropriate restart for a double foul in in both NFHS and NCAA.
the difference being that there is team control during a throw-in in the NCAA so there would be POI to restart play. So the ball would be inbounded near mid-court spot throwin nearest the double foul for team A
I believe it is POI for NFHS too, but on a double foul since there is no team control here you go to the AP. the inbound would be spot nearest foul call.

I'm pretty sure you go back to the POI in NFHS also, which is a throw-in for Team A at the original spot. We had a thread about this a few weeks ago, although in that situation the ball wasn't deflected by Team B before the double foul occurred.

If the ball is touched legally do you go to the arrow and if it isn't touched yet do you go back to the POI? I'm confused on this one.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by zm1283

I'm pretty sure you go back to the POI in NFHS also, which is a throw-in for Team A at the original spot. We had a thread about this a few weeks ago, although in that situation the ball wasn't deflected by Team B before the double foul occurred.

If the ball is touched legally do you go to the arrow and if it isn't touched yet do you go back to the POI? I'm confused on this one.

You always go to the POI. But, ...

If the throw in has ended (the case where B1 deflects the ball), then neither team is in control, and there's not a throw-in or FT involved, so the POI will be the arrow.

If the throw-in hasn't ended (the case where B1 does not deflect the ball), then neither team is in control, but there is a throw-in or FT involved, so the POI will be the throw-in.

[OHBBREF]

Originally Posted by zm1283

I'm pretty sure you go back to the POI in NFHS also, which is a throw-in for Team A at the original spot. We had a thread about this a few weeks ago, although in that situation the ball wasn't deflected by Team B before the double foul occurred.

If the ball is touched legally do you go to the arrow and if it isn't touched yet do you go back to the POI? I'm confused on this one.

I'm pretty sure that on a double foul you go o the POI and give the ball back to the team in control.

but the issue here is that durring a throw in in NFHS there is no team control
So I think you have to go AP in that case

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by OHBBREF

I'm pretty sure that on a double foul you go o the POI and give the ball back to the team in control.

but the issue here is that durring a throw in in NFHS there is no team control
So I think you have to go AP in that case

You ALWAYS use POI after a double foul. It's just that sometimes POI is an A/P throw-in, and other times it's not.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by OHBBREF

I'm pretty sure that on a double foul you go o the POI and give the ball back to the team in control.

but the issue here is that durring a throw in in NFHS there is no team control
So I think you have to go AP in that case

See Bob's answer immediately above.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I just wished to check that you weren't saying that FC and BC status didn't exist without team control. The FC/BC status of a player or the ball may be not matter most of the time without team control, but does exist and can certainly be determined.

Of a player, maybe. I would say the FC/BC status of the ball may not be determined without team control.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Ok, now you really made me think about this one, and the best that I can do is come up with some plays in which either the location of the players or the ball matters to the subsequent administration of the game, but during which there was no team control. However, whether that location is FC or BC isn't really important. All that is important is that the rules instruct us to go to a point nearest that location. So I guess that I have to agree with your contention that FC/BC distinction isn't important on plays where team control doesn't exist, as long as we acknowledge that there is independent relevance to the location of the players and the ball and that location can impact the administration of the game.

Consider these plays:
1. A1 has the ball for a throw-in along the endline following a goal by Team B. He tries to throw the ball the length of the floor to A2, but B3 standing in the FT lane (a) nearest Team B's basket, (b) near the division line, or (c) nearest Team A's basket kicks the ball. Where's the new throw-in location?

Of your three plays, this is the only one where FC/BC have an arguable relevance; in determining whether the throwin is a spot throwin or an endline throwin. Since this is generally determined without reference to FC/BC, but instead by referencing whose basket is which, I say it's "arguable."

Good stuff, I think.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

2. With only six seconds remaining in the game and the score tied, Team A has an endline throw-in. A1's throw-in pass is immediately deflected by B1 who is standing near the endline in the backcourt of Team A. The ball continues to midcourt where A3 and B3 commit a double personal foul while going for the ball, but before either player is able to touch it. The official sounds the whistle for the double foul with two seconds left. How is the game resumed?

Originally Posted by OHBBREF

The Team A throw in ended with the legal touch by B1, you would resume with the appropriate restart for a double foul in in both NFHS and NCAA.
the difference being that there is team control during a throw-in in the NCAA so there would be POI to restart play. So the ball would be inbounded near mid-court spot throwin nearest the double foul for team A
I believe it is POI for NFHS too, but on a double foul since there is no team control here you go to the AP. the inbound would be spot nearest foul call.

Now I'm less positive about NCAA, but for NFHS, you have the spot wrong on this. I think you're wrong on NCAA as well.

[zm1283]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

You always go to the POI. But, ...

If the throw in has ended (the case where B1 deflects the ball), then neither team is in control, and there's not a throw-in or FT involved, so the POI will be the arrow.

If the throw-in hasn't ended (the case where B1 does not deflect the ball), then neither team is in control, but there is a throw-in or FT involved, so the POI will be the throw-in.

Okay that's what I thought. Thanks.

[OHBBREF]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Now I'm less positive about NCAA, but for NFHS, you have the spot wrong on this. I think you're wrong on NCAA as well.

explain - since the throw in is over would not the ball be spotted nearest the actual interuption (foul) or or are you saying it is where the ball is when the double foul occured?

I amde the assumption it was with or near the two players who fouled sorry.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by OHBBREF

explain - since the throw in is over would not the ball be spotted nearest the actual interuption?

No, it's always point of interruption. Not the spot of the interruption. On a double foul, the location of the foul is never relevant.

Therefore, the spot will be the location of the ball; currently defined as where it was last touched.

In this play, you'd take it back to where the defender deflected it off the inbounds pass.

[OHBBREF]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Of your three plays, this is the only one where FC/BC have an arguable relevance; in determining whether the throwin is a spot throwin or an endline throwin. Since this is generally determined without reference to FC/BC, but instead by referencing whose basket is which, I say it's "arguable."

I am missing your point here please explain because this is directly addressed in 7.5-7

ART. 7 . . . After a goal or awarded goal as in 7-4-3, the team not credited with the score shall make the throw-in from the end of the court where the goal was made and from any point outside the end line. A team retains this privilege if the scoring team commits a violation or common foul (before the throw-in ends and before the bonus is in effect) and the ensuing throw-in spot would have been on the end line. Any player of the team may make a direct throw-in or he/she may pass the ball along the end line to a teammate(s) outside the boundaryline.

again old book but no significant change has occurred that I am aware of.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by OHBBREF

I am missing your point here please explain because this is directly addressed in 7.5-7

ART. 7 . . . After a goal or awarded goal as in 7-4-3, the team not credited with the score shall make the throw-in from the end of the court where the goal was made and from any point outside the end line. A team retains this privilege if the scoring team commits a violation or common foul (before the throw-in ends and before the bonus is in effect) and the ensuing throw-in spot would have been on the end line. Any player of the team may make a direct throw-in or he/she may pass the ball along the end line to a teammate(s) outside the boundaryline.

again old book but no significant change has occurred that I am aware of.

My point is simply that 7-5-7 does not refer to BC or FC, only the basket where the goal was made.

I think it backs up the assertion that FC/BC do not exist, per the rules, without team control.