Double foul and shot clock horn

[Scrapper1]

This is a question from the NCAA test. We went over it and over last night, but without a real resolution.

A1 releases a try. B2 and A2 foul each other. The shot clock horn sounds. A1's try fails to hit the rim. Enforce the fouls and then what?

Go to the arrow?
Penalize the shot clock violation?

Since the whistle blew for the double foul, the shot clock should not have sounded, even though the ball remains live. That leads me to believe that we go to the arrow.

Others thought that since the ball is live and the shot clock horn did sound, you have a violation, and the POI is the penalty for the violation.

I looked through the case book and couldn't find a real match to the situation. Anybody have a clear reference?

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

This is a question from the NCAA test. We went over it and over last night, but without a real resolution.

A1 releases a try. B2 and A2 foul each other. The shot clock horn sounds. A1's try fails to hit the rim. Enforce the fouls and then what?

Go to the arrow?
Penalize the shot clock violation?

Since the whistle blew for the double foul, the shot clock should not have sounded, even though the ball remains live. That leads me to believe that we go to the arrow.

Others thought that since the ball is live and the shot clock horn did sound, you have a violation, and the POI is the penalty for the violation.

I looked through the case book and couldn't find a real match to the situation. Anybody have a clear reference?

The ball does not become dead on a foul until a try is in flight ends (NCAA 6-6-1-c). I don't find where that is different because it's a double foul. Normally, in this situation, the ball would be dead when it's obvious the try is unsuccessful and we'd go to the arrow because the POI is an undetermined possession. However, the ball becomes dead, even with a try in flight, when the offense violates. Which they did, although the determination of the violation is slightly delayed in this case.

So my take would be that POI would be the awarding of the ball OOB for the shot clock violation. After all, you have to ask yourself: What would have happened if there had been no interruption.

I would imagine this would be a similar in enforcement to if there were a double foul, with a try in flight, and then the offense commits BI.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

the ball becomes dead, even with a try in flight, when the offense violates. Which they did, although the determination of the violation is slightly delayed in this case.

But they shouldn't have. If the clock stopped properly, the shot clock horn would not have sounded. Does that make a difference?

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

But they shouldn't have. If the clock stopped properly, the shot clock horn would not have sounded. Does that make a difference?

I am admittedly a neophyte when it comes to NCAA rules, and especially with the shot clock, however...

I don't see in the rules where the shot clock stops on a try, which would be one reason to consider why it maybe should have stopped. It would stop and reset on a single foul, which is not the case here. so that's not relevant. It would stop and then continue at the POI on a double foul when there is team control, which there isn't in this scenario.

Am I missing something?

Edited to add: Hmmm, except that by 5-10-1 it should stop on a foul. Which is without qualification.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

I am admittedly a neophyte when it comes to NCAA rules, and especially with the shot clock, however...

I don't see in the rules where the shot clock stops on a try, which would be one reason to consider why it maybe should have stopped. It would stop and reset on a single foul, which is not the case here. so that's not relevant. It would stop and then continue at the POI on a double foul when there is team control, which there isn't in this scenario.

Am I missing something?

Edited to add: Hmmm, except that by 5-10-1 it should stop on a foul. Which is without qualification.

I'm certainly no shot clock expert....but...

The game clock and shot clock should stop on the whistle for the foul. If the horn sounds after the foul/whistle, then the clock didn't get stopped correctly. Time should be restored to both the game clock and shot clock. Therefore, I believe that no shot clock violation has really occured. However, at the time of the foul, there was no team control (try in the air that was unsuccessful) which means possession is determined by the arrow....regardless of the time on the clock. You go with the arrow and, if team A has the possession arrow, you leave the clock at the restored time (with an imminent shot clock violation likely)

[Lotto]

The clock should stop on a foul, but what if the sequence goes:

A1 shoots, shot clock horn goes off, A2/B2 double foul, try doesn't hit rim

Now what?

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by Lotto

The clock should stop on a foul, but what if the sequence goes:

A1 shoots, shot clock horn goes off, A2/B2 double foul, try doesn't hit rim

Now what?

From NCAA 9-11-2, it appears that there are two distinct violations:

• An immediate violation if a try has not left a shooter's hand before the shot clock horn sounds
• If a try is in flight when the horn sounds, a violation occurs "subsequently", which I take to mean "not until it doesn't happen", when the try ends if it does not strike the ring, flange, or enter the basket.

So in this scenario, it seems we have a try in flight and a live ball when the double foul occurs. But the horn has sounded, so we don't have the stopping the clock issues in the OP. The ball becomes dead when the try ends. Penalize the double foul, POI is the AP arrow.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

But they shouldn't have. If the clock stopped properly, the shot clock horn would not have sounded. Does that make a difference?

Can you review the film to see at which point the horn should have sounded? If not, go with the violation. If you can, I'd say fix the clock and go with the arrow.

[Brad]

The POI is the shot clock violation. So report the fouls and then award the ball to Team B on the baseline.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Brad

The POI is the shot clock violation. So report the fouls and then award the ball to Team B on the baseline.

Why is the POI the shot clock violation? If the timer had done his job properly, there wouldn't be a shot clock violation. Right? I'm sure you're right. I just don't know why we extend the POI to a point where the clock should already have been stopped.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Why is the POI the shot clock violation? If the timer had done his job properly, there wouldn't be a shot clock violation. Right? I'm sure you're right. I just don't know why we extend the POI to a point where the clock should already have been stopped.

I think the rationale by the NCAA is not to bail out the offense out of what would be a clear violation had the double foul not occurred. So you have 3 possible scenarios:

• shot goes in, awards points to offense, defense gets ball running end line
• shot hits rim but doesn't go in, go to AP arrow
• shot doesn't hit rim, shot clock violation, award ball to defense

The answer Brad gave is definitely correct.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Why is the POI the shot clock violation? If the timer had done his job properly, there wouldn't be a shot clock violation. Right? I'm sure you're right. I just don't know why we extend the POI to a point where the clock should already have been stopped.

I agree with Scrapper -- It's the same question we've always had about the clock stopping "properly" at other than "near the end of the game" (or maybe even then, in non-monitor games). I think that the answer was / is that there really is "lag time".

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I think the rationale by the NCAA is not to bail out the offense out of what would be a clear violation had the double foul not occurred. So you have 3 possible scenarios:

• shot goes in, awards points to offense, defense gets ball running end line
• shot hits rims but doesn't go in, go to AP arrow
• shot doesn't hit rim, shot clock violation, award ball to defense

The answer Brad gave is definitely correct.

This is what I would have expected, and I totally agree with the rationale. However, NCAA 5-10-1 tells us that the shot clock stops on the whistle for a foul. How do you reconcile that?