Question

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

While that may very well be the intent, the actual effect is to make literally ANY thrown ball from beyond the arc worth 3 points if it goes in the basket without touching the floor or a teammate.

The very point of the rule was ONLY to remove judgement of try vs. pass...to treat both as a try if it goes in. NOTHING else was changed.

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

The rule was written incredibly badly, and directly conflicts with at least one case play ruling.

No conflict at all...when the case plays and rule are considered in context.

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

The ball does not stop being thrown simply because it is obvious that it's not going in the basket.

I ask again....when does the "thrown ball" cease to be a thrown ball? Given that there is no explicit and independant definition, we're left with it ending in the same way as a try (since the rule effectively indicates that we should treat the thrown ball as a try). If not, the "thrown ball" has no endpoint and team B could even catch the ball and shoot it into A's basket for 3 points (and we all know that team B can't score 3 for team A).

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

The very point of the rule was ONLY to remove judgement of try vs. pass...to treat both as a try if it goes in.

I agree that this was the intent of the rule change.

NOTHING else was changed.

This, however, is simply not true. The rule says that ANY thrown ball yada, yada, yada. ANY.

I ask again....when does the "thrown ball" cease to be a thrown ball? Given that there is no explicit and independant definition, we're left with it ending in the same way as a try

That is a totally arbitrary conclusion. Why not say that the thrown ball ends when it is controlled or given additional impetus by another player. That seems equally reasonable to me.

And your suggestion that "the rule effectively indicates that we should treat the thrown ball as a try" is also simply not true. If it were true, then we would award 3 free throws to the thrower if s/he were fouled trying to throw the alley-oop. We're not going to do that.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

I agree that this was the intent of the rule change.

This, however, is simply not true. The rule says that ANY thrown ball yada, yada, yada. ANY.

That is a totally arbitrary conclusion.

It does say ANY, but the ball does cease to be come such a thrown ball at some point.

No, it is not and arbitrary conclusion. It is derived form the only rule we have addressing the subject...

"when the throw is successful, when it is certain the throw is unsuccessful, when the ball touches the floor or when the ball becomes dead" (4-41-4).

Note that this refers to the throw ending, not the try ending.

I've provided a rule that fits, makes sense, and is consistent with other rules and the explantions given for what the rule change meant to address....no one else has provided anything to the contrary.

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Why not say that the thrown ball ends when it is controlled or given additional impetus by another player. That seems equally reasonable to me.

Because the impetus by another player doesn't negate the try/throw...

• • A1, behind the arc, shoots/throws at the basket
  • B1 swats the ball and very slightly deflects it
  • the ball still goes off the backboard and in
  • count it for 3.

Don't get hung up on the imperfection or ambiguity in the wording of the rule when it is clear what is intended. The rule book is not written by lawyers in excruciatingly convoluted and exhaustive legalease and shouldn't be interpreted as if it were.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

No, it is not and arbitrary conclusion. It is derived form the only rule we have addressing the subject...

"when the throw is successful, when it is certain the throw is unsuccessful, when the ball touches the floor or when the ball becomes dead" (4-41-4).

Note that this refers to the throw ending, not the try ending.

You fail to acknowledge the two different contexts in which the word "throw" is being used.

4-41 is the definition of the technical and foundational term "try", what it is, when it begins, when it ends. To define such a term requires the use of another, more general-purpose word describing the action a "try" encompasses. That word is "throw". Of course 4-41-4 uses the word "throw" rather than "try" to describe when a "try" ends. You cannot define when a "try" ends in terms of when the "try" ends. That would be circular reasoning.

OTOH, the inclusion of the word "throw" in 5-2-1 alongside "try" and "tap" specifically calls it out as something different than a "try", something not "an attempt by a player to score two or three points by throwing the ball into a team’s own basket."

Arguing that the use of the phrase "the throw is unsuccessful", ripped from the context of a throw that by definition is a try, should apply also to a "throw" that specifically is not a "try", is comparing apples and oranges.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

You fail to acknowledge the two different contexts in which the word "throw" is being used.

....

Arguing that the use of the phrase "the throw is unsuccessful", ripped from the context of a throw that by definition is a try, should apply also to a "throw" that specifically is not a "try", is comparing apples and oranges.

The point is that the rule was to make a "thrown ball" analogous to to a "try" when it was possible that it could be a try. Everyone knows what the purpose of the rule is and to argue it means anything else is just silly. Don't get hung up on the narrow letter of the rule....that's not the way the rule book was ever written or meant to be read. What I've claimed is not inconsistent with any NFHS official explanation or comment on why the rule was changed and what it was meant to address.

[just another ref]

Suggestion: Ball thrown from outside the arc counts 3 unless it touches a teammate inside the arc or drops below the level of the basket first.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Suggestion: Ball thrown from outside the arc counts 3 unless it touches a teammate inside the arc or drops below the level of the basket first.

So when B1 deflects the pass just after its release and while it is well below the level of the ring, and it flies way up into the air and drops through the goal, how many points would your rule award?