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I swear, Gus, you'd argue with a possum. It'd be easier than arguing with you, Woodrow. Lonesome Dove |
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While it is not stated in the case, the assumption is the typical case...that A1 is throwing the ball from behind the 3 point line and B1, who is touching the 2 point area, touches the ball in an attempt to block the pass/try near the time it leaves A1's hands. It was never intended to apply to a ball that is thrown no where near the basket but is completely redirected by team B such that it goes into the basket.
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Owner/Developer of RefTown.com Commissioner, Portland Basketball Officials Association |
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It was my understanding that the rule was changed, whenever that was, to take judgment out of this play. So now when the alley oop goes untouched into the basket, it counts 3. But, if in the course of this change, it gives us a couple of 3's in a lifetime such as the ones described above, how do we count them as 2, citing, "That's not what they meant."
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I swear, Gus, you'd argue with a possum. It'd be easier than arguing with you, Woodrow. Lonesome Dove |
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But when a thrown ball that was not intended to go in the basket in the first place goes in, especially when the case play specifies that it is okay if the ball is touched by a B player, standing in either the 2 point or 3 point areas, how can you count it as two? "He can get lucky, but not that lucky."
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I swear, Gus, you'd argue with a possum. It'd be easier than arguing with you, Woodrow. Lonesome Dove |
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The rule meant only to remove the judgement in determining if the thrown ball was a try or an attempted pass....it was never intended to change when a try or an apparent try ends. The effect of this rule is, for at least the purpose of determining the number of points scored, to consider a "thrown ball" from behind the 3-point line to be a try whether that was the intent of the thrower or not. The "thrown ball", effectively being a try, ends in the very same manner as a try... "when the throw is successful, when it is certain the throw is unsuccessful, when the ball touches the floor or when the ball becomes dead" (4-41-4).The point of the case play is to establish that a touch by a team B player doesn't end the try/throw. But that doesn't exclude the possibility that it may have already ended. While this is not explicitly stated in the rulebook, it is the only conclusion that makes sense in the context of other rules. When this rule is read alone, other conclusions can be imagined, but they are not consistent and don't make any sense. So, again, when does it cease to be a "thrown ball" for the purposes of 3-points? When the ball is traveling in a path such that it can not enter the basket without being redirected by another player or the floor.
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Owner/Developer of RefTown.com Commissioner, Portland Basketball Officials Association Last edited by Camron Rust; Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 01:24am. |
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After all, we are talking about 1 point. A1, at the free throw line, attempts to thread the needle with a bullet pass to A2 as he turns into the lane from the block. Instead, B2 gets a hand on the ball, which is deflected upward and enters the basket. If this pure accident can count two points, I see no reason why the same accident thrown from outside the arc can't count 3.
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I swear, Gus, you'd argue with a possum. It'd be easier than arguing with you, Woodrow. Lonesome Dove |
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two conflicting case book plays
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Of course, I do believe that the rule should be rewritten so that this confusion is eliminated, but for now please recall this passage from near the front of the NFHS Rules Book: THE INTENT AND PURPOSE OF THE RULES The restrictions which the rules place upon the players are intended to create a balance of play; to provide equal opportunity between the offense and the defense; to provide equal opportunity between the small player and tall player; to provide reasonable safety and protection; to create an atmosphere of sporting behavior and fair play; and to emphasize cleverness and skill without unduly limiting freedom of action of individual or team play on either offense or defense. Therefore, it is important to know the intent and purpose of a rule so that it may be intelligently applied in each play situation. A player or a team should not be permitted an advantage which is not intended by a rule. Neither should play be permitted to develop which may lead to placing a player at a disadvantage not intended by a rule. It is the policy of the NFHS Basketball Rules Committee that there be no deviation from the rules unless experimental approval has been granted by the NFHS liaison to the rules committee. THE GAME – Basketball is played by two teams of five players each. The purpose of each team is to throw the ball into its own basket and to prevent the other team from scoring. The ball may be thrown, batted, rolled or dribbled in any direction, subject to restrictions laid down in the following rules. Please study these two conflicting play rulings, both from the 2008-09 NFHS Case Book, and note that only by understanding the intent and purpose of the latter can the contradiction be resolved. 4.41.4 SITUATION B: A1’s three-point try is short and below ring level when it hits the shoulder of: (a) A2; or (b) B1 and rebounds to the backboard and through the basket. RULING: The three-point try ended when it was obviously short and below the ring. However, since a live ball went through the basket, two points are scored in both (a) and (b). (5-1) 5.2.1 SITUATION C: A1 throws the ball from behind the three-point line. The ball is legally touched by: (a) B1 who is in the three-point area; (b) B1 who is in the two-point area; (c) A2 who is in the three-point area; or (d) A2 who is in the two-point area. The ball continues in flight and goes through A's basket. RULING: In (a) and (b), three points are scored since the legal touching was by the defense and the ball was thrown from behind the three-point line. In (c), score three points since the legal touch by a teammate occurred behind the three-point line. In (d), score two points since the legal touch by a teammate occurred in the two-point area. Okay, so what is the proper context in which to apply 5.2.1 Sit C part (b)? It was written to alleviate a difficult judgment call for an official in trying to decide if a player throwing the ball from behind the three point line was attempting to score or not. It was NOT intended to reward a team with an extra point when the throw by that team clearly had no opportunity to score three points. The following two case plays, also from the 2008-09 NFHS Case Book, demonstrate this. If the circumstances are mostly akin to the first play ruling, and a defender whose court position is within the two point area contacts the ball, then the offensive team is not to be punished by that fact and three points should still be scored. However, if the thrown ball clearly could not have scored three points, if not for the touch by the defender(s) located in the two point area, then the offense does not deserve three points and only two are scored. 5.2.1 SITUATION B: With 2:45 left in the second quarter, B1 has the ball on the left wing in Team B's frontcourt, standing behind the three-point arc. B5 makes a backdoor cut toward the basket. B1 passes the ball toward the ring and B5 leaps for the potential "alley-oop" dunk. The ball, however, enters and passes through the goal directly from B1's pass and is not touched by B5. RULING: Score three points for Team B. A ball that is thrown into a team's own goal from behind the three-point arc scores three points, regardless of whether the thrown ball was an actual try for goal. 5.2.1 SITUATION D: Following the free throws for a technical foul, A1 makes a throw-in from out of bounds at the division line opposite the table. The throw-in pass is deflected at A’s free-throw line by: (a) A2; or (b) B1 and it then goes directly through A’s basket. RULING: Score two points for Team A in both (a) and (b). The throw-in ended when the ball was touched by an inbounds player and the live ball subsequently passed through the basket. The fact it was not a tap or a try for goal does not affect the scoring of two points. (4-41-4) I hope that eliminates any misunderstanding on this. |
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Nevada, 5.2.1D isn't relevant to this because it's a throwin pass. The only time this ball was legally touched in bounds was inside the arc.
I agree with you on intent and a desire to see this rewritten. 5.2.1D doesn't help, though.
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Pope Francis |
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The rule was written incredibly badly, and directly conflicts with at least one case play ruling. The ball does not stop being thrown simply because it is obvious that it's not going in the basket. |
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The first case play, only counts it as 2 points, because the shot was over because we could tell it was not going in to the basket! The 2nd case play was tipped out behind the 3 point line and counts as 3 even though it probably wasn't even a shot. It does need to be re-written, but I think they are two totally different plays, so it really shouldn't be that difficult to figure out which one to use, although they could make it a whole lot easier on us and re-write it.
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DETERMINATION ALL BUT ERASES THE THIN LINE BETWEEN THE IMPOSSIBLE AND THE POSSIBLE! |
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What am I missing that's so hard? We still have to judge try vs. throw in these situations. For example - A1 attempts an alley-oop pass from outside the 3-pt. line, B1 fouls A1 on the arm, and the ball goes through the basket. If we judge it to be a pass, than no points are scored, because the ball is dead, and B1 is charged with a common foul. More than likely, we will judge it to be a shot, count the 3 points, and A1 will shoot one.
If that's the case, then the case plays Nevada posted do not really conflict at all. If we judge A1 to be passing, then 5.2.1 Sit. C applies. If B1 fouls A1, than no points will be awared even if the ball goes through the basket, because it is a common foul. If we judge A1 to be shooting, then 4.41.4 Sit. B applies. If it is a try, than all the rules involving tries apply. A1 is fouled by B1 on a 3-pt. try, the ball goes below the ring and hits B2 on the head and bounces through the basket - no basket, because the try has ended. Just because the Fed. eliminated judgement in try vs. throw involving counting points, doesn't mean they eliminated the judgement altogether.
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I ask again....when does the "thrown ball" cease to be a thrown ball? Given that there is no explicit and independant definition, we're left with it ending in the same way as a try (since the rule effectively indicates that we should treat the thrown ball as a try). If not, the "thrown ball" has no endpoint and team B could even catch the ball and shoot it into A's basket for 3 points (and we all know that team B can't score 3 for team A).
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Owner/Developer of RefTown.com Commissioner, Portland Basketball Officials Association Last edited by Camron Rust; Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 01:46pm. |
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And your suggestion that "the rule effectively indicates that we should treat the thrown ball as a try" is also simply not true. If it were true, then we would award 3 free throws to the thrower if s/he were fouled trying to throw the alley-oop. We're not going to do that. |
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