Question

[ajs8207]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

When was the question first written? I think this answer may have "changed" (or there was a clarification / interp from FED) about 4 years ago.

I think it was last year. I've emailed one of our upper level board members to see if the answer key has any misprints.

[Loudwhistle]

I thought "A" players were on defense, this could be a press situation and it is not "A's" basket, the OP doesn't say it is a try.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Loudwhistle

I thought "A" players were on defense, this could be a press situation and it is not "A's" basket, the OP doesn't say it is a try.

The standard is that A is offense, and B is defense. Also, it says A1 attempts a pass, that puts them on offense. The ball is released from behind A1'a arc.

The point of the question is that it doesn't matter whether or not it's a try.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

The standard is that A is offense, and B is defense. Also, it says A1 attempts a pass, that puts them on offense. The ball is released from behind A1'a arc.

The point of the question is that it doesn't matter whether or not it's a try.

But it does matter if the ball has a chance to enter the basket from the throw. If A1 throws the ball from halfcourt and it hits B1 in the head, while he is standing under the basket, then bounces up and enters the basket from above, there is no way that three points should be scored.

The intent and purpose of the thrown ball/try rule for 3 points must be understood and applied correctly.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

But it does matter if the ball has a chance to enter the basket from the throw. If A1 throws the ball from halfcourt and it hits B1 in the head, while he is standing under the basket, then bounces up and enters the basket from above, there is no way that three points should be scored.

You mean beside the fact that the actual rule says that 3 points should be scored?

The intent and purpose of the thrown ball/try rule for 3 points must be understood and applied correctly.

And the rule should be written (or re-written) correctly.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

If A1 throws the ball from halfcourt and it hits B1 in the head, while he is standing under the basket, then bounces up and enters the basket from above, there is no way that three points should be scored.

5.2.1 Situation C: A1 throws the ball from behind the three-point line. The ball is legally touched by (b) B1 who is in the two-point area; The ball continues in flight and goes through A's basket. Ruling: In (b), three points are scored since the legal touching was by the defense and the ball was thrown from behind the three-point line.

I'm confused ??? I know that in the Nevadaref case, the basket would not count if the horn were to sound before the ball went in the basket, because the try ends when it is certain the throw is unsuccessful, in this case by hitting B1 in the head, but I'm not sure that in Nevadaref case that the end of a try means that two points are scored instead of three?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

5.2.1 Situation C: A1 throws the ball from behind the three-point line. The ball is legally touched by (b) B1 who is in the two-point area; The ball continues in flight and goes through A's basket. Ruling: In (b), three points are scored since the legal touching was by the defense and the ball was thrown from behind the three-point line.

I'm confused ??? I know that in the Nevadaref case, the basket would not count if the horn were to sound before the ball went in the basket, because the try ends when it is certain the throw is unsuccessful, in this case by hitting B1 in the head, but I'm not sure that in Nevadaref case that the end of a try means that two points are scored instead of three?

This is another example of a case play meant for one situation and one situation only being extrapolated by some officials to something entirely unreleated.

While it is not stated in the case, the assumption is the typical case...that A1 is throwing the ball from behind the 3 point line and B1, who is touching the 2 point area, touches the ball in an attempt to block the pass/try near the time it leaves A1's hands.

It was never intended to apply to a ball that is thrown no where near the basket but is completely redirected by team B such that it goes into the basket.

[just another ref]

It was my understanding that the rule was changed, whenever that was, to take judgment out of this play. So now when the alley oop goes untouched into the basket, it counts 3. But, if in the course of this change, it gives us a couple of 3's in a lifetime such as the ones described above, how do we count them as 2, citing, "That's not what they meant."

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

This is another example of a case play meant for one situation and one situation only being extrapolated by some officials to something entirely unreleated.

While it is not stated in the case, the assumption is the typical case...that A1 is throwing the ball from behind the 3 point line and B1, who is touching the 2 point area, touches the ball in an attempt to block the pass/try near the time it leaves A1's hands.

It was never intended to apply to a ball that is thrown no where near the basket but is completely redirected by team B such that it goes into the basket.

Well said.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

.......the try ends when it is certain the throw is unsuccessful.......

But when a thrown ball that was not intended to go in the basket in the first place goes in, especially when the case play specifies that it is okay if the ball is touched by a B player, standing in either the 2 point or 3 point areas, how can you count it as two?

"He can get lucky, but not that lucky."

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by just another ref

But when a thrown ball that was not intended to go in the basket in the first place goes in, especially when the case play specifies that it is okay if the ball is touched by a B player, standing in either the 2 point or 3 point areas, how can you count it as two?

"He can get lucky, but not that lucky."

At some point it must cease to be a "thrown ball". When does this occur?

The rule meant only to remove the judgement in determining if the thrown ball was a try or an attempted pass....it was never intended to change when a try or an apparent try ends.

The effect of this rule is, for at least the purpose of determining the number of points scored, to consider a "thrown ball" from behind the 3-point line to be a try whether that was the intent of the thrower or not. The "thrown ball", effectively being a try, ends in the very same manner as a try...

"when the throw is successful, when it is certain the throw is unsuccessful, when the ball touches the floor or when the ball becomes dead" (4-41-4).

The point of the case play is to establish that a touch by a team B player doesn't end the try/throw. But that doesn't exclude the possibility that it may have already ended.

While this is not explicitly stated in the rulebook, it is the only conclusion that makes sense in the context of other rules. When this rule is read alone, other conclusions can be imagined, but they are not consistent and don't make any sense.

So, again, when does it cease to be a "thrown ball" for the purposes of 3-points? When the ball is traveling in a path such that it can not enter the basket without being redirected by another player or the floor.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I'm confused ??? I know that in the Nevadaref case, the basket would not count if the horn were to sound before the ball went in the basket, because the try ends when it is certain the throw is unsuccessful, in this case by hitting B1 in the head, but I'm not sure that in Nevadaref case that the end of a try means that two points are scored instead of three?

Originally Posted by just another ref

It was my understanding that the rule was changed, whenever that was, to take judgment out of this play. So now when the alley oop goes untouched into the basket, it counts 3. But, if in the course of this change, it gives us a couple of 3's in a lifetime such as the ones described above, how do we count them as 2, citing, "That's not what they meant."

Originally Posted by just another ref

But when a thrown ball that was not intended to go in the basket in the first place goes in, especially when the case play specifies that it is okay if the ball is touched by a B player, standing in either the 2 point or 3 point areas, how can you count it as two?

Because there is another case play which says that it is only worth TWO points! So there are two case plays seemingly giving opposite rulings! One must understand the proper context of each one in order to apply it correctly. One cannot just blindly follow the text of one of them.

Of course, I do believe that the rule should be rewritten so that this confusion is eliminated, but for now please recall this passage from near the front of the NFHS Rules Book:

THE INTENT AND PURPOSE OF THE RULES

The restrictions which the rules place upon the players are intended to create a
balance of play; to provide equal opportunity between the offense and the
defense; to provide equal opportunity between the small player and tall player; to
provide reasonable safety and protection; to create an atmosphere of sporting
behavior and fair play; and to emphasize cleverness and skill without unduly
limiting freedom of action of individual or team play on either offense or defense.
Therefore, it is important to know the intent and purpose of a rule so that it may be intelligently applied in each play situation. A player or a team should not be permitted an advantage which is not intended by a rule.
Neither should play be permitted to develop which may lead to placing a player at a disadvantage not
intended by a rule.
It is the policy of the NFHS Basketball Rules Committee that there be no
deviation from the rules unless experimental approval has been granted by the
NFHS liaison to the rules committee.

THE GAME –

Basketball is played by two teams of five players each. The
purpose of each team is to throw the ball into its own basket and to prevent the
other team from scoring. The ball may be thrown, batted, rolled or dribbled in any
direction, subject to restrictions laid down in the following rules.

Please study these two conflicting play rulings, both from the 2008-09 NFHS Case Book, and note that only by understanding the intent and purpose of the latter can the contradiction be resolved.

4.41.4 SITUATION B:

A1’s three-point try is short and below ring level when it hits the shoulder of: (a) A2; or (b) B1 and rebounds to the backboard and through the basket. RULING: The three-point try ended when it was obviously short and below the ring. However, since a live ball went through the basket, two points are scored in both (a) and (b). (5-1)

5.2.1 SITUATION C:

A1 throws the ball from behind the three-point line. The ball is legally touched by: (a) B1 who is in the three-point area; (b) B1 who is in the two-point area; (c) A2 who is in the three-point area; or (d) A2 who is in the two-point area. The ball continues in flight and goes through A's basket. RULING: In (a) and (b), three points are scored since the legal touching was by the defense and the ball was thrown from behind the three-point line. In (c), score three points since the legal touch by a teammate occurred behind the three-point line. In (d), score two points since the legal touch by a teammate occurred in the two-point area.

Okay, so what is the proper context in which to apply 5.2.1 Sit C part (b)?

It was written to alleviate a difficult judgment call for an official in trying to decide if a player throwing the ball from behind the three point line was attempting to score or not. It was NOT intended to reward a team with an extra point when the throw by that team clearly had no opportunity to score three points.

The following two case plays, also from the 2008-09 NFHS Case Book, demonstrate this. If the circumstances are mostly akin to the first play ruling, and a defender whose court position is within the two point area contacts the ball, then the offensive team is not to be punished by that fact and three points should still be scored. However, if the thrown ball clearly could not have scored three points, if not for the touch by the defender(s) located in the two point area, then the offense does not deserve three points and only two are scored.

5.2.1 SITUATION B:

With 2:45 left in the second quarter, B1 has the ball on the left wing in Team B's frontcourt, standing behind the three-point arc. B5 makes a backdoor cut toward the basket. B1 passes the ball toward the ring and B5 leaps for the potential "alley-oop" dunk. The ball, however, enters and passes through the goal directly from B1's pass and is not touched by B5. RULING: Score three points for Team B. A ball that is thrown into a team's own goal from behind the three-point arc scores three points, regardless of whether the thrown ball was an actual try for goal.

5.2.1 SITUATION D:

Following the free throws for a technical foul, A1 makes a throw-in from out of bounds at the division line opposite the table. The throw-in pass is deflected at A’s free-throw line by: (a) A2; or (b) B1 and it then goes directly through A’s basket. RULING: Score two points for Team A in both (a) and (b). The throw-in ended when the ball was touched by an inbounds player and the live ball subsequently passed through the basket. The fact it was not a tap or a try for goal does not affect the scoring of two points. (4-41-4)

I hope that eliminates any misunderstanding on this.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

But it does matter if the ball has a chance to enter the basket from the throw. If A1 throws the ball from halfcourt and it hits B1 in the head, while he is standing under the basket, then bounces up and enters the basket from above, there is no way that three points should be scored.

The intent and purpose of the thrown ball/try rule for 3 points must be understood and applied correctly.

Why would this be any different than the diagonal pass to the corner which is deflected into the basket?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Why would this be any different than the diagonal pass to the corner which is deflected into the basket?

Because that pass was deflected more quickly, into the area of the basket. Kinda like the difference between a shot being blocked just out of the shooters hands and just before it goes into the ring.