Teams go in the wrong direction

[muxbule]

This is from an on-line rules review that I use. This particular one does not make sense and I need to some help understanding.

To start the game, the officials permit the teams to go in the wrong direction. A-1 secures the tap and scores. B-1 inbounds the ball to B—2. B-2 recognizes the mistake and scores at what should be B’s basket.

Officials huddle and rule that the score by A-1 will count for team A and the score by B—2 will count for team B making the score 2 to 2. Are the officials correct?

The rule reference is 4.5.4 which I get. What I don't get is how B-2 scored. As I read it, Team B scored in the same bucket as A because he figured out the mistake. Does not seem correct. Thoughts.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by muxbule

This is from an on-line rules review that I use. This particular one does not make sense and I need to some help understanding.

To start the game, the officials permit the teams to go in the wrong direction. A-1 secures the tap and scores. B-1 inbounds the ball to B—2. B-2 recognizes the mistake and scores at what should be B’s basket.

Officials huddle and rule that the score by A-1 will count for team A and the score by B—2 will count for team B making the score 2 to 2. Are the officials correct?

The rule reference is 4.5.4 which I get. What I don't get is how B-2 scored. As I read it, Team B scored in the same bucket as A because he figured out the mistake. Does not seem correct. Thoughts.

What other alternative can you suggest? Give all the points to one team? Does that seem any more correct?

[muxbule]

To me 4.5.4 refers to points being scored in the appropriate basket for the direction then it is discovered and corrected. Why doesn't 5.1.3 come in to play. Somebody scored in the wrong basket!!! In the situation I had it makes sense to allow the points by A but not B and resume with a throw in by B.

[grunewar]

Originally Posted by muxbule

To me 4.5.4 refers to points being scored in the appropriate basket for the direction then it is discovered and corrected. Why doesn't 5.1.3 come in to play. Somebody scored in the wrong basket!!! In the situation I had it makes sense to allow the points by A but not B and resume with a throw in by B.

I believe 5.1.3 refers to when everyone knows it's the wrong basket (except the shooter of course). i.e. - in the middle fo the game someone shoots into a basket everyone knows is wrong and scores - two points for opponent. In the case you mention however, the refs made a mistake and identified the wrong baskets at the jump (I did it once) and therefore, the teams shouldn't be penalized. There is no justification to take points off the board for B.

Turn everyone around, ensure everyone understands, and move on. JMO.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

What other alternative can you suggest?

Count A's basket because it came while "everyone was playing basketball". Disallow B's basket because it didn't. Resume play with a throw-in for B at the "correct" end-line and everyone pointed the correct direction.

That seems to me to be the "right" ("most fair") ruling, but I'd have to use 9.01c to get there.

[mick]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Count A's basket because it came while "everyone was playing basketball". Disallow B's basket because it didn't. Resume play with a throw-in for B at the "correct" end-line and everyone pointed the correct direction.

That seems to me to be the "right" ("most fair") ruling, but I'd have to use 9.01c to get there.

Ha!

[rlarry]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Count A's basket because it came while "everyone was playing basketball". Disallow B's basket because it didn't. Resume play with a throw-in for B at the "correct" end-line and everyone pointed the correct direction. ("most fair") ruling, but I'd have to use 9.01c to get there.

I agree with the original ruling. I assume everyone kept playing, one player made a heads up play and scored an easy lay up. The only other thing I can think of is they're not going in the wrong direction until the official fixes the mistake.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by rlarry

I agree with the original ruling. I assume everyone kept playing, one player made a heads up play and scored an easy lay up. The only other thing I can think of is they're not going in the wrong direction until the official fixes the mistake.

IIRC, once upon a time the remedy for this situation was to turn the teams around and assign all points to the team into whose basket they were scored (i.e., B gets the points A scored, and vice versa). Based on the NFHS changing that rule to what it is currently, I don't think it's within the spirit or intent of the rule to count B's basket in this case for A.

Just my $0.02

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Count A's basket because it came while "everyone was playing basketball". Disallow B's basket because it didn't. Resume play with a throw-in for B at the "correct" end-line and everyone pointed the correct direction.

That seems to me to be the "right" ("most fair") ruling, but I'd have to use 9.01c to get there.

OK, could go with that result too....but I still like the idea of continuing from all-even.

[BayStateRef]

Rule 4.5.4 says "when discovered" all points, fouls, etc. count. It does not say who has to "discover" the original mistake. In this play, Team B "discovered" the mistake and had the uncontested layup. The rule says we do not penalize Team A for the officials' mistake. Score is now 2-2 and A inbounds the ball.

[mick]

Originally Posted by BayStateRef

Rule 4.5.4 says "when discovered" all points, fouls, etc. count. It does not say who has to "discover" the original mistake. In this play, Team B "discovered" the mistake and had the uncontested layup. The rule says we do not penalize Team A for the officials' mistake. Score is now 2-2 and A inbounds the ball.

BayStateRef,
By your example, with which I agree with, Player B discovered the mistake before he shot, not after he shot.

Gimmee B ball baseline at the other end. [A-2; B-0]

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BayStateRef

Rule 4.5.4 says "when discovered" all points, fouls, etc. count. It does not say who has to "discover" the original mistake. In this play, Team B "discovered" the mistake and had the uncontested layup. The rule says we do not penalize Team A for the officials' mistake. Score is now 2-2 and A inbounds the ball.

It was "discovered" as soon as B stopped / turned around. What happened after that shouldn't have. Don't allow B's "basket" to count for anyone.

In my view, it's much the same as the official announcing 2 shots when it should be 1-1. If "everyone" plays the rebound, then continue. If only one person plays the rebound, then fix the problem.

[OHBBREF]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

It was "discovered" as soon as B stopped / turned around. What happened after that shouldn't have. Don't allow B's "basket" to count for anyone.

In my view, it's much the same as the official announcing 2 shots when it should be 1-1. If "everyone" plays the rebound, then continue. If only one person plays the rebound, then fix the problem.

Ultimately one of the Crew should have figured this out before the toss, and it should never have happened.

Discovered would be in MHO when the officals determine that they were sleeping and screwed the pooch. Everything up to that point counts take your medicine and move on.

But you can not blow your whistle until you figure out that there was screw up that you made, if the kid figures it out you can not penalize him for it.
but per chance what if the kid didn't know it was the right basket, and most likely if everyone in the gym isn't yelling it by now the kid isn't going to know it either.

[mick]

Originally Posted by OHBBREF

Ultimately one of the Crew should have figured this out before the toss, and it should never have happened.

Discovered would be in MHO when the officals determine that they were sleeping and screwed the pooch. Everything up to that point counts take your medicine and move on.

*Discovered* is undefined, as BayStateRef pointed out. And since it is not specifically stated who the discoverer shall be, use that freedom of judgement to make your game as fair as possible.

Originally Posted by OHBBREF

But you can not blow your whistle until you figure out that there was screw up that you made, if the kid figures it out you can not penalize him for it.

Actually, I can blow my whistle whenever is see fit to blow it. Too, I can recognize the mistake before I blow my whistle

Originally Posted by OHBBREF

but per chance what if the kid didn't know it was the right basket, and most likely if everyone in the gym isn't yelling it by now the kid isn't going to know it either.

I dunno what you're saying here. But, if Kid B purposely shot in an opponent's basket, and the mistake still isn't discovered, then it's B's ball again and still going the wrong way *until it's discovered". [A-4; B-0]

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Count A's basket because it came while "everyone was playing basketball". Disallow B's basket because it didn't. Resume play with a throw-in for B at the "correct" end-line and everyone pointed the correct direction.

That seems to me to be the "right" ("most fair") ruling, but I'd have to use 9.01c to get there.

Rules are intended to be fair.