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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Fri Oct 31, 2008, 02:11pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Texref View Post
I'm not arguing LGP. In fact nowhere in any of my responses has LGP even been brought up... I'm saying that this player, IN THE OP, is not entitled to the spot b/c he is not "ON THE PLAYING SURFACE" by definition of player location.
That is my whole point - LGP is the main point of this discussion. I keep bringing it up because that is the reason for the blocking foul. Both you and rwest state the only reason for the foul is because the defender is OOB. There is an important distinction between LGP, and "player location".

Please, look at the case play again, and quote for me the reason B1 is called for a blocking foul in both the case play.
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Old Fri Oct 31, 2008, 02:14pm
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Originally Posted by M&M Guy View Post
That is my whole point - LGP is the main point of this discussion. I keep bringing it up because that is the reason for the blocking foul. Both you and rwest state the only reason for the foul is because the defender is OOB. There is an important distinction between LGP, and "player location".

Please, look at the case play again, and quote for me the reason B1 is called for a blocking foul in both the case play.
No, LGP is the main point of rwest's argument, NOT MINE. I'm not using it b/c it is not relevent to this play. The player's location is and that is what my whole basis for calling a block is, as indicated by my previous post.

Now will either you or jdw please provide a rule reference to call the player control foul like I have provided? Thanks.

****EDITED TO ADD THE FOLLOWING THIS IS NOT WHAT I BELIEVE BUT...****In fact, if you read it this way (I DON'T), BY rule in order for the player to be entitled to a spot, then he has to be considered guarding somebody since that is where it falls in the rule book! If a player is guarding someone, then they have to have LGP. LGP can't be established or maintained if the player is OOB. That could be an argument for rwest's point of view on this as well.****EDITED TO ADD THE PREVIOUSTHAT IS NOT WHAT I BELIEVE BUT...****

Last edited by Texref; Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 02:19pm.
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Old Fri Oct 31, 2008, 02:18pm
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Originally Posted by Texref View Post
No, LGP is the main point of rwest's argument, NOT MINE. I'm not using it b/c it is not relevent to this play. The player's location is and that is what my whole basis for calling a block is, as indicated by my previous post.

Now will either you or jdw please provide a rule reference to call the player control foul like I have provided? Thanks.
10-6-7...A dribbler shall neither charge into nor contact an opponent in his/her path...

How's that?
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Old Fri Oct 31, 2008, 02:22pm
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Originally Posted by jdw3018 View Post
10-6-7...A dribbler shall neither charge into nor contact an opponent in his/her path...

How's that?
We will have to agree to disagree. I've made my argument and will stick by it. Maybe MTD can email Mary and get the question resolved
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Old Fri Oct 31, 2008, 06:32pm
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Originally Posted by jdw3018 View Post
10-6-7...A dribbler shall neither charge into nor contact an opponent in his/her path...

How's that?
Definition of charge says that the player had to legally be in front of the defender. See previous posts, with rules included, as to why the defender in the OP is not legally w/in the path of the offense.
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Old Fri Oct 31, 2008, 02:22pm
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Originally Posted by Texref View Post
No, LGP is the main point of rwest's argument, NOT MINE. I'm not using it b/c it is not relevent to this play.
That's the whole problem - it is entirely relevent to this play. So, if you do not have your books handy, maybe you should refrain from commenting until you have them in front of you? Again, case play 4.23.3 Sit B is the relevent play.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Texref View Post
Now will either you or jdw please provide a rule reference to call the player control foul like I have provided? Thanks.
Sure - 4-19-6
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Old Fri Oct 31, 2008, 02:26pm
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Originally Posted by M&M Guy View Post
That's the whole problem - it is entirely relevent to this play. So, if you do not have your books handy, maybe you should refrain from commenting until you have them in front of you? Again, case play 4.23.3 Sit B is the relevent play.



Sure - 4-19-6
If you are using LGP, then this play is a BLOCK based on the case play and we don't need to argue!!!
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Old Fri Oct 31, 2008, 02:31pm
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Originally Posted by Texref View Post
If you are using LGP, then this play is a BLOCK based on the case play and we don't need to argue!!!
We've all said that if LGP is required on this play, it's a block. This player does not have LGP, but he does not need LGP if he is not moving.
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Old Fri Oct 31, 2008, 02:33pm
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Originally Posted by Texref View Post
If you are using LGP, then this play is a BLOCK based on the case play and we don't need to argue!!!
We all agree the OP's play is a foul, if the defender was moving to obtain or maintain LGP.

The question arose as to whether a stationary defender, can still draw the charge, even if they have a foot on the line (OOB status).

Not including this particular play, I believe we can all agree that, in certain situations, a player can be called for a player-control foul against a defender that does not have LGP, correct?
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Old Fri Oct 31, 2008, 02:53pm
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Originally Posted by jdw3018 View Post
Everyone who has posted in this thread agrees with that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by M&M Guy View Post
We all agree the OP's play is a foul, if the defender was moving to obtain or maintain LGP.

The question arose as to whether a stationary defender, can still draw the charge, even if they have a foot on the line (OOB status).

Not including this particular play, I believe we can all agree that, in certain situations, a player can be called for a player-control foul against a defender that does not have LGP, correct?
yep
A1 driving to the basket B1 is running parralell to A1 haveing never establish LGP, A1 changes direction toward B1 and lowers shoulder to initiate contact and go through B1 to get to the basket.

PC foul and we go the other way.
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Old Fri Oct 31, 2008, 02:56pm
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Originally Posted by OHBBREF View Post
yep
A1 driving to the basket B1 is running parralell to A1 haveing never establish LGP, A1 changes direction toward B1 and lowers shoulder to initiate contact and go through B1 to get to the basket.

PC foul and we go the other way.
There are lots of options. B1 standing still, looking at his coach for a signal, and A1 runs by him, brushing him hard enough to knock him down.

Or a rebound, B1 facing the basket, ball goes to A1 behind him. A1 grabs it and charges through B1 before B1 has a chance to turn around.
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Old Fri Oct 31, 2008, 03:06pm
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Originally Posted by OHBBREF View Post
yep
A1 driving to the basket B1 is running parralell to A1 haveing never establish LGP, A1 changes direction toward B1 and lowers shoulder to initiate contact and go through B1 to get to the basket.

PC foul and we go the other way.
Hmm, actually B1 could have LGP in this particular case.

Perhaps a better example would A1 driving to the basket, B2 is guarding A2 on the post, and B2's back is to A1. As A1 drives past B2, A1 gives a little forearm to B2's back to creat a little more space. (Snaqs has more examples.)

Anyway, we agree the offense can commit a player-control foul against a defender who does not have LGP.

This leads us back to the question of the stationary defender with the foot on the line. My whole point is the case play tells us the defender does not have LGP, due to the foot being on the line. It does not say the defender has "illegal position", and it does not say the defender is responsible for all contact because they are OOB. There have been no specific rules citations to back up any of those comments. So, all other things being equal, my point (and a couple others here), say there can be a situation where A1 can be called for the player-control foul, even though B1's foot is on the line OOB.

Do you follow the logic?
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