Block / Charge Situation

[sseltser]

Another related play:

B1 rolls his ankle in A's frontcourt well ahead of A2 dribbling the ball up the floor. B1 falls to the ground, injured, onto the sideline, and the officials rule that they will allow A to finish their play toward the basket. A2 continues dribbling, while being defensively pressured by B2 towards B1's body. A2's foot contacts B1 and he trips and falls to the floor holding the ball. What is the ruling?

I say travelling (and I surmise M&M, jdw and that camp agree).

(Note - NFHS response only)

[rwest]

Originally Posted by sseltser

Another related play:

B1 rolls his ankle in A's frontcourt well ahead of A2 dribbling the ball up the floor. B1 falls to the ground, injured, onto the sideline, and the officials rule that they will allow A to finish their play toward the basket. A2 continues dribbling, while being defensively pressured by B2 towards B1's body. A2's foot contacts B1 and he trips and falls to the floor holding the ball. What is the ruling?

I say travelling (and I surmise M&M, jdw and that camp agree).

(Note - NFHS response only)

A kid is laying on the floor. This is not LGP. It's a block. What do you have when A1 goes up for a layup and comes down and is tripped by B1 lying on the floor? It's called a block. You can't play defense lying on the floor! You're entitled to a spot, but not lying on the floor!

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by rwest

A kid is laying on the floor. This is not LGP. It's a block. What do you have when A1 goes up for a layup and comes down and is tripped by B1 lying on the floor? It's called a block. You can't play defense lying on the floor! You're entitled to a spot, but not lying on the floor!

Sez who?


B1 is lying on the floor injured, well in advance of the play. If the dribbler, or any other offensive player trips over him, no way is this a block.

[rwest]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Sez who?


B1 is lying on the floor injured, well in advance of the play. If the dribbler, or any other offensive player trips over him, no way is this a block.

Was he in LGP? No. Did he have a right to be on the floor? No. Are you going to call traveling? I hope not. If anything kill the play to see to the injured player, but in no way does the offense lose the ball. You can't be on the floor rolling in pain and cause the offense to lose the ball.

The only way I won't call this is if the offense had an opportunity to go around the kid. If as you say it is well in advance of the play then the offense has a chance to go around the player. I would agree with you then that the proper call would be traveling if he lost the ball. I'm not going to bail out the offense. However, if its bang-bang, then you have to call a block because the player does not have LGP nor does he have the right to be on the floor like that. He can't occupy as much space as he wants.
What do you call when B1 is laying on the floor and during rebounding action A1 trips over B1? Its called a block. B1 is not in LGP and doesn't have a right to cause A1 to lose his balance by being on the floor.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by rwest

What do you call when B1 is laying on the floor and during rebounding action A1 trips over B1? Its called a block. B1 is not in LGP and doesn't have a right to cause A1 to lose his balance by being on the floor.

If he's been lying here the whole game I have nothing. This has been discussed here before. I am not aware of a rule which makes sitting/lying down on the floor, in and of itself illegal.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by just another ref

If he's been lying here the whole game I have nothing.

Now what if he was lying there for the whole game while it was being played on an aircraft carrier crossing the Internatinal Dateline from west to east?

Seriously. Can a player be on the floor after a fall, remain motionless for a split second, be involved in a contact situation with a dribbler, shooter, or a player trying to move without the ball, and be called for any type of illegal contact?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by rwest

Was he in LGP? No.

Correct.

Originally Posted by rwest

Did he have a right to be on the floor? No.

Incorrect. Pretty basic and you'll be the only one arguing that point. All players are entitled to their spot on the floor, even if it is horizontal.

Originally Posted by rwest

Are you going to call traveling?

Nope...nothing at all....unless he actually travels.

Originally Posted by rwest

I hope not. If anything kill the play to see to the injured player, but in no way does the offense lose the ball. You can't be on the floor rolling in pain and cause the offense to lose the ball.

By what rule?

Originally Posted by rwest

However, if its bang-bang, then you have to call a block because the player does not have LGP nor does he have the right to be on the floor like that.

Incorrect again. LGP is not relevant.

Originally Posted by rwest

He can't occupy as much space as he wants.

Actually, he can in this case.

Originally Posted by rwest

What do you call when B1 is laying on the floor and during rebounding action A1 trips over B1? Its called a block.

It's called tough luck for A1.

Originally Posted by rwest

B1 is not in LGP and doesn't have a right to cause A1 to lose his balance by being on the floor.

A1 doesn't have any right to land on B1....it's a no call....nothing...ever....not even a judgement call. By rule, there is no call to be considered.

[rwest]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Correct.

Incorrect. Pretty basic and you'll be the only one arguing that point. All players are entitled to their spot on the floor, even if it is horizontal.

Nope...nothing at all....unless he actually travels.

By what rule?

Incorrect again. LGP is not relevant.

Actually, he can in this case.

It's called tough luck for A1.

A1 doesn't have any right to land on B1....it's a no call....nothing...ever....not even a judgement call. By rule, there is no call to be considered.

They are not entitled to a spot on the floor laying horizontal. No way!
So then I can set a screen as wide as I want to since there is no restriction on how much space I take up? It's not tough luck for A1. Its a foul on B1. A1 has a right to a landing. B1 can't take that away from them.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by rwest

They are not entitled to a spot on the floor laying horizontal. No way!
So then I can set a screen as wide as I want to since there is no restriction on how much space I take up? It's not tough luck for A1. Its a foul on B1. A1 has a right to a landing. B1 can't take that away from them.

As long as B1 was in place prior to A1 taking off, A1 does not have the right to jump on top of B1.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by rwest

They are not entitled to a spot on the floor laying horizontal. No way!
So then I can set a screen as wide as I want to since there is no restriction on how much space I take up? It's not tough luck for A1. Its a foul on B1. A1 has a right to a landing. B1 can't take that away from them.

In this case, you are unequivocally and completely wrong. B1 is entitled to any spot on the floor...note ANY...as long as they got to that spot legally. Period. Once they are there, they can remain there as long as they like (except for 3 seconds in the lane).

B1 can take any position he/she wants as long as their arms/legs are not extended away from their torso. B1 may have to satisfy time/distance requirements (if they fall to the floor right in front of a moving opponent who doesn't have the ball) but the position itself is not illegal.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by rwest

A kid is laying on the floor. This is not LGP. It's a block. What do you have when A1 goes up for a layup and comes down and is tripped by B1 lying on the floor? It's called a block. You can't play defense lying on the floor! You're entitled to a spot, but not lying on the floor!

Find me a rule or case play to support this.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Find me a rule or case play to support this.

... or to defend it. I'd like to see either.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

... or to defend it. I'd like to see either.

It's no longer there, but if you look in an older case book, you'll find it. It's never been reversed; just removed.

[Adam]

By the way:
Note this thread.

Or this one.

Note they reference a NFHS case play that is no longer there, but has never been actively reversed.

Defenders are not required to have LGP when occupying a spot on the floor, as long as they are stationary.

Also note, the NCAA ruling is different for the player lying on the floor.

[BillyMac]

"10.6.1E B1 attempts to steal the ball from stationary A1 who is holding the ball. B1 misses the ball and falls to the floor. In dribbling away, A1 contacts B1's leg, loses control of the ball and falls to the floor. RULING: No infraction or foul has occurred and play continues. Unless B1 made an effort to trip or block A1, he/she is entitled to a position on the court even if it is momentarily lying on the floor after falling down".

Snaqwells: What a great citation. How long did it take you to find this? Did you have to go up into your attic like Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. has to do all the time, and complain about it? Did you find it in an old rulebook, or did you come up with it by searching the Forum?

Thanks.