Block / Charge Situation

[jdw3018]

I'm more than willing to admit I'm wrong here - however, 4.23.3 deals with legal guarding position, and in the OP there certainly is no legal guarding position.

However, legal guarding position isn't required for all PC fouls. A player facing away from the dribbler doesn't have legal guarding position. But, if that player is stationary, A1 cannot displace him from his position on the court.

I'd contend that a stationary B1, even with a foot touching the end line, is still entitled to that spot. I'll also contend this is not a violation unless you deem B1 intentionally left the playing court.

[grunewar]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

I'd contend that a stationary B1, even with a foot touching the end line, is still entitled to that spot. I'll also contend this is not a violation unless you deem B1 intentionally left the playing court.

JDW - you can "contend" all you want, the NFHS Caseplay and rule is "B1 is called for a blocking foul because a player may not be out of bounds and obtain or maintain legal guarding position."

Picture A1 dribbling and B1 attempting to "force" A1 out of bounds by maintaining his LGP and using the sideline/baseline. B1 may not intentionally leave the court, but, if he's on the line and there's a collision, Fed says you have a block.

[jdw3018]

I don't disagree that B1 forfeits his LGP. In fact, that's what I said in my first post on this topic.

But what if LGP isn't required?

[Freddy]

I appreciate this particular discussion. Back in the early 70's our veteran high school coach taught us to always put a foot OB so that the dribbler couldn't possibly get around us on that side. "Take the charge!", he'd say.
When officiating in the 80's and early 90's, I acknowledged no problem with this and recall no rule against it.
When coaching in the late 90's and early 00's, I coached defenders the same way.
When resuming officiating in the mid-00's, I see that a rule change must have taken place. Either that or my high school coach was incorrect and I wasn't as up on the rules as I should have been.
Last year I polled a variety of varsity coaches on this "legal guarding position = in bounds" issue, and about 70% of them got it wrong.
Of course it takes a while for the rules to catch up with the coaches, doesn't it!

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Freddy

I appreciate this particular discussion. Back in the early 70's our veteran high school coach taught us to always put a foot OB so that the dribbler couldn't possibly get around us on that side. "Take the charge!", he'd say.
When officiating in the 80's and early 90's, I acknowledged no problem with this and recall no rule against it.
When coaching in the late 90's and early 00's, I coached defenders the same way.
When resuming officiating in the mid-00's, I see that a rule change must have taken place. Either that or my high school coach was incorrect and I wasn't as up on the rules as I should have been.
Last year I polled a variety of varsity coaches on this "legal guarding position = in bounds" issue, and about 70% of them got it wrong.
Of course it takes a while for the rules to catch up with the coaches, doesn't it!

Freddy,
This change began back prior to the 2003-04 season when the NFHS tried to pass it off as an editorial change. We knew then that it was really a rule change and said so. Case plays and interpretations came out the following season. Here are a couple of our early discussions about this on this forum:
legal guarding position

Has anyone seen the new wording on "legal guarding position" must have both feet IB

More on Rule for 2003-2004

One Foot on the Line, The Sequel

The last one is my favorite.

[OHBBREF]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

I don't disagree that B1 forfeits his LGP. In fact, that's what I said in my first post on this topic.

But what if LGP isn't required?

even if you go with the part about the defender is entitled to his position on the court, since the foot is OB there is no way that you can not call this a block.
the player has to be on the floor to be legal - not just to have legal gaurding position.

[PAULK1]

This is from the 04-05 interps from NFHS ( I believe this was the year they changed the rule)
SITUATION 13: A1 is dribbling near the sideline when B1 obtains legal guarding position. B1 stays in the path of A1 but in doing so has (a) one foot touching the sideline or (b) one foot in the air over the out-of-bounds area when A1 contacts B1 in the torso. RULING: In (a), B1 is called for a blocking foul because a player may not be out of bounds and obtain or maintain legal guarding position. In (b), A1 is called for a player-control foul because B2 had obtained and maintained legal guarding position. (4-23-2; 4-23-3a)

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by OHBBREF

even if you go with the part about the defender is entitled to his position on the court, since the foot is OB there is no way that you can not call this a block.
the player has to be on the floor to be legal - not just to have legal guarding position.

Disagree. A defender who is OOB doesn't automatically become open for free hits just because they're OOB.

The rule that addresses this is ONLY about LGP. It declares that and OOB player can't have LGP. Thus, any contact that depends on LGP will automatically be a block if the defender is OOB. However, contact that doesn't depend on LGP is unaffected by this rule. All case plays and interpretations dealing with this situation are in the context of a player actively guarding their oppoenent...making LGP relevant.

Additionally, it deals only with block/charge. Any other type of foul (illegal use of hands, push, hold and hand check) against the offensive player are still possible even if the defender is actively guarding the dribbler.

EDIT: ran spell checker after seeing I had so many typos. :|

[Adam]

I agree with Camron. If B1 isn't moving, he doesn't need LGP. 4.23.3 deals specifically with a player moving and maintaining LGP. It doesn't apply to a stationary defender.

[truerookie]

Why did B1 set up so close to the baseline that would cause him to be OOB?

The baselines and sidelines are your friend. You can easily establish your position so that you are not consider OOB thus losing your status of LGP.

Block!!