Officiating Philosophy ?

[jdmara]

Originally Posted by Coltdoggs

At an upper level, competitive deal...such as sanctioned HS event...totally wrong. I don't like it that they feel the need to press with 25 point lead...but it happens.

Lower level, say 6th and below......I know where you are coming from....been there.

Perhaps what might be incidental contact in a 1-2 point game is not incidental in the 25+ point game. If we can deem contact incidental and not blow the whistle, we can certainly deem the contact not incidental and blow the whistle.

Being a guy that officiates, sits on the local youth league board, coaches and wants to joing the positive coaching alliance....sometimes at lower levels, I have all my hats on when I'm wearing the stripes.

Agreed with Coltdoggs. Had this same situation last week. Sometimes the coaches need a little help to realize what is appropriate at the youth level. At times, coaches are just starting out at this level and they don't realize how inappropriate it is to be pressing when up by 25. It's a good way to pi$$ people off. (Can I say p*^^?)

-Josh

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by jdmara

Agreed with Coltdoggs. Had this same situation last week. Sometimes the coaches need a little help to realize what is appropriate at the youth level. At times, coaches are just starting out at this level and they don't realize how inappropriate it is to be pressing when up by 25. It's a good way to pi$$ people off. (Can I say p*^^?)

-Josh

On the other hand, maybe the team that is ahead is preparing for their next game which will be against a really good team and they will need to be able to press them. The coach is working on the press and wants his kids to learn how to run it effectively. It's unfortunate that a team is losing badly, but it's not our job to "teach" the coach how we think he should be coaching.

What the OP'er did was feed into the mythology floating around out there that officials decide who wins the game by calling it inconsistently. What wasn't a foul early - before the 25 point lead - has suddenly become a foul. That's not right.

[Coltdoggs]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

On the other hand, maybe the team that is ahead is preparing for their next game which will be against a really good team and they will need to be able to press them. The coach is working on the press and wants his kids to learn how to run it effectively. It's unfortunate that a team is losing badly, but it's not our job to "teach" the coach how we think he should be coaching.

What the OP'er did was feed into the mythology floating around out there that officials decide who wins the game by calling it inconsistently. What wasn't a foul early - before the 25 point lead - has suddenly become a foul. That's not right.

Rock...At the lower level....Sorry...there is an element of sportsmanship that's being overlooked if you are pressing with a 25 point lead. You probably "worked on your press" this game to get that much of a lead anyway. Why not work on another area of your game like perfecting your offensive sets with crisp passing and not shooting the ball?

Most youth leagues I've worked don't allow a press past 20 but if you want to continue to pile on against what is obviously a sub-par team that can't break a press...there is just no place in youth sports for that. It's not win at all costs by as much as you can....that's for professional sports or a-holes and even pros will back off.

I agree that consistency is our goal but at lower level, I can and will stand by my position on incidental contact. I can tell you that it only takes about 3calls before the coach puts his sportsmanship cap back on. Incidental contact is a judgement call on our part and if you want to press with a 20+ point lead....fine, just make sure you are not making contact I deem more than incidental.

Snags- good question....at some point the pressing team who has backed out is going to get back into it and it's going to be at a point (like under 20 points) at which point I don't really have a problem with it because as stated...most use the 20 point as the benchmark for allowing this...In those cases where that rule is not in play...that's what I work with in my philosophy on this matter.

[grunewar]

Originally Posted by Coltdoggs

Rock...At the lower level....Sorry...there is an element of sportsmanship that's being overlooked if you are pressing with a 25 point lead. You probably "worked on your press" this game to get that much of a lead anyway. Why not work on another area of your game like perfecting your offensive sets with crisp passing and not shooting the ball?

Most youth leagues I've worked don't allow a press past 20 but if you want to continue to pile on against what is obviously a sub-par team that can't break a press...there is just no place in youth sports for that. It's not win at all costs by as much as you can....that's for professional sports or a-holes and even pros will back off.

Colt, so what your saying is that the coaches, league officials, and parents can't decide what sportsmanship is, so therefore as the referee you will? At what level do you decide it's ok and they're old enough and the coaches mature? 4th grade? 5th? 6th? I understand what you're saying, but disagree.


PS - edited for spelling error before spelling police got me....

[Coltdoggs]

Originally Posted by grunewar

Colt, so what your saying is that the coaches, league officials, and parents can't decide what sportsmanship is, so therefore as the referee you will? At what level do you decide it's ok and they're old enough and the coaches mature? 4th grade? 5th? 6th? I understand what you're saying, but disagree.


PS - edited for spelling error before spelling police got me....

Grune...fair question. It depends on the league and really more so the talent level to be honest. One rec league I work in that is instructional for the kids...equal playing time and such... has a no press after 10 point rule and they can only press in the last 2 mins of Q3 and Q4 so it's not even an issue.

The other "travel" league I typically ref in and will be coaching in this year, they have the 20 point press rule. These are typically kids better than the rec players from a physical skill ability and mental understanding. As stated, if they are doing a tourney where they waive that and simply play NFHS rules...then I use 20 as my own meter for this philosophical debate on how I am going to judge the incidental contat.

I will say that because of my background as a board member of youth leagues and personal beliefs and things I bring into officiating from a coaches standpoint can sometimes overlap when I am officiating. There is a fine line with that...

I enjoy the younger age groups because that is what I am around with my own kids and the teaching aspect is something I like when officiating for the younger kids.

When I do older kids who understand the game there is less and less of that....honestly I've seen some really good 4th grade travel teams that would run some 6th or 7th grade rec teams off the floor . I just did a game the other day where 7th graders were playing up in the Freshman league....
the 6'3" center for the freshman team was one of the 7th graders....

I'm not trying to play judge-jury-executioner by any means but you have to understand my whole background as it pertains to youth sports. I definately feel my perspective is a bit different than most because I have played, I've coached, I currently coach, I volunteer my time to serve on the youth league boards and I have officiated at the MS/JRHS level for 8+ years.....The harsh reality is that some parents and some coaches don't get it and NEVER will....it's only about lil' Johnny getting his points and winning....and I'm in the camp that it's about the effort and player development....I could give a **** less if my team wins or not.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Coltdoggs

Snags- good question....at some point the pressing team who has backed out is going to get back into it and it's going to be at a point (like under 20 points) at which point I don't really have a problem with it because as stated...most use the 20 point as the benchmark for allowing this...In those cases where that rule is not in play...that's what I work with in my philosophy on this matter.

Look, I understand the sentiment at lower levels. However, unless the league sees fit to put the rule in, I'm not going to do it on my own. It's the leagues' responsibility to either put in or not put in mercy rules. They don't hire officials to make up rules; plain and simple.

[jdmara]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Look, I understand the sentiment at lower levels. However, unless the league sees fit to put the rule in, I'm not going to do it on my own. It's the leagues' responsibility to either put in or not put in mercy rules. They don't hire officials to make up rules; plain and simple.

Very true. I agree with you on that. Perhaps I need to fine tune my philosophy a bit

-Josh

[jdmara]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

On the other hand, maybe the team that is ahead is preparing for their next game which will be against a really good team and they will need to be able to press them. The coach is working on the press and wants his kids to learn how to run it effectively. It's unfortunate that a team is losing badly, but it's not our job to "teach" the coach how we think he should be coaching.

What the OP'er did was feed into the mythology floating around out there that officials decide who wins the game by calling it inconsistently. What wasn't a foul early - before the 25 point lead - has suddenly become a foul. That's not right.

I will speak for myself as I do not want to put words into anyone's mouths

My professional philosophy is that there are at least two situations when things get out of hand at a moments notice, when the score is extremely tight and a "blow-out". When there is such a scoring disparity, tempers start to flare easily. It's a very volatile situation.

My partner(s) and I talk about both situations in our pregame and remind each other not to let our guard down if the later happens. I believe that some officials become relaxed and do not exercise the utmost attentiveness when the score becomes out of hand but it'll bite you in the rear someday. I will speak for myself and say that when the score is not tight, sometimes I get relaxed and complacent. Maybe I could even say that my alertness is not at it's peak. That's why it's a pregame topic for me. The P(s) remind each other to stay alert in these situations.

Concerning the OP, I don't call every incident of contact a foul if it wasn't a foul prior to the point spread (probably because it's not a foul). (I equate this to opening up the strikezone in baseball. It's not professionally ethical). I simply elevate my alertness and call the game as if it were a one point game (both ways). I don't want to make it seem that I don't stay attentive during the entire game but an intentional heightened alertness is given to these situations.

With 5-6th graders, their athletic abilities are not extremely keen at this age. They are still finding themselves physically and they don't necessarily control their aggressiveness well (IE there tend to be a lot of crashes from my experience). In the beginning of the game, I might let a few more go as incidental and talk with the players a bit more. At this age, I find, it helps to talk because the kids actually will pay attention to what is being said. Although, they might not remember what was said. However, with a disparity of points and as the tone of the game as set, these crashes will become less because the talking stops and the whistle blows.

Some youth leagues I work, they are very well coached and I don't wander into the arena of encouraging the players as much. Some leagues are unfortunately not like that. If they aren't getting positive feedback from the coaches and are getting discouraged, I'll encourage them a little bit. For instance, the player just turned the ball over twice and fouled on the other end out of frustration. I might pass by and might say "good hustle gentleman!" I won't say a specific number, I'll just encourage everyone to keep up the great work. I consider this preventative officiating.

Just my two cents. Hopefully that I made sense. Unfortunately, work keeps getting in the way of my posting. I need to find a job where I can eliminate the interruptions.

-Josh