Interrupted dribble situation

[efbyon]

Hi everyone,

During our IHSAA basketball officials clinic last Saturday, the following play was shown on a DVD that our clinician, who I know well, made:

A1 is dribbling the ball; during the dribble, the ball bounces off A1's leg by accident, causing an interrupted dribble. The loose ball then touches A2 and then is caught with both hands by A1. A1 then starts dribbling again.

Our clinician said that this is an illegal dribble. The reason for this is because A2's touching of the ball in this case occured during an interrupted dribble and thus did not end A1's dribble. When A1 caught the ball, than ended the original dribble, and therefore, when A1 started dribbling again, a violation occured. Furthermore, 9-5-3 would not apply in this case because A1's action was not considered a pass; it was an interrupted dribble.

My take: I think there's a chance he's right, but I'm not really convinced. If you look at 4-31, the definition of a pass, it does say that "A pass is the movement of the ball caused by a player who throws, bats or rolls the ball to another player." One could make the argument that even though it was an interrupted dribble and that A1 did not intend to actually pass the ball, the ball was, in a manner of speaking, batted to A2 and therefore this would be considered a pass in this case, despite that A1 did not intend to do so. Therefore, after A2's touching and A1's subsequent recovery, A1 should be allowed to start a new dribble.

(Of course, had it been B1 touching the interrupted dribble. that would be easier, as 9-5-2 would apply)

Thoughts?

[BillyMac]

NFHS 9-5 5: Illegal Dribble: A player shall not dribble a second time after his/her first dribble has ended, unless it is after he/she has lost control because of:
ART.1...A try for field goal.
ART.2...A touch by an opponent.
ART.3...A pass or fumble which has then touched, or been touched by, another player.

Did a fumble lead to then interrupted dribble?

NFHS 4-21: A fumble is the accidental loss of player control when the ball unintentionally drops or slips from a player’s grasp.

Did the ball bounce off of A1's leg because of an accidental loss of player control due to an unintentional drop or slip?

[Camron Rust]

Technically speaking, it appear that you have found a hole in the rules since a fumble is something that occurs when someone is holding the ball. I think it is safe to say that the intent is to consider the dribble to have ended when another player touches an interrupted dribble. Consider it a pass if necessary, but the dribble has ended.

[efbyon]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

NFHS 9-5 5: Illegal Dribble: A player shall not dribble a second time after his/her first dribble has ended, unless it is after he/she has lost control because of:
ART.1...A try for field goal.
ART.2...A touch by an opponent.
ART.3...A pass or fumble which has then touched, or been touched by, another player.

Did a fumble lead to then interrupted dribble?

NFHS 4-21: A fumble is the accidental loss of player control when the ball unintentionally drops or slips from a player’s grasp.

Did the ball bounce off of A1's leg because of an accidental loss of player control due to an unintentional drop or slip?

Response to both questions: No. In the video we saw, A1 dribbled the ball off his foot; there appeared to be no evidence that suggested that the ball was unintentionally dropped or slipped by A1; otherwise, that would be a fumble in my book. Sorry, I should have made that clearer.

Fred

[BillyMac]

NFHS 9-5 5: Illegal Dribble: A player shall not dribble a second time after his/her first dribble has ended, unless it is after he/she has lost control because of:
ART.3...A pass or fumble which has then touched, or been touched by, another player.
NFHS 4-21: A fumble is the accidental loss of player control when the ball unintentionally drops or slips from a player’s grasp.

I'm sure that A1 did not intentionally dribble the ball off his leg, so it must have been unintentional and accidental. There is no player control during an interrupted dribble (4-15-5: An interrupted dribble occurs when the ball is loose after deflecting off the dribbler or after it momentarily gets away from the dribbler. There is no player control during an interrupted dribble), so A1 did lose player control. As Camron Rust has pointed out: "A fumble is something that occurs when someone is holding the ball". So the key word here is grasp. The ball may have slipped from his hand, but not from his grasp, during his dribble, causing the situation you have presented.

Everything hinges on the word grasp. It appears that Camron Rust is correct, "you have found a hole in the rules". If this had happened in my game, I would allow A1 to play on, and with the exception your IHSAA clinician, I'm going to guess that most officials would do the same as me.

[BillyMac]

"To take hold of or seize firmly with or as if with the hand".
"To clasp firmly with or as if with the hand".
"To make a motion of seizing, snatching, or clutching".

Three definitions of grasp are stated above. The first two imply, as Camron Rust pointed out, that a player can only fumble after holding the ball, note the word hold, in the first definition.

However, note the third definition. A player could be considered to grasp the ball if they were only making a motion to seize, snatch, or clutch, the ball, without actually seizing, snatching, clutching, or in essence, holding, the ball. Thus the definition of fumble becomes an accidental loss of player control when the ball unintentionally drops or slips from a player’s motion of seizing, snatching, or clutching. Thus, without knowing A's intent the last time he touched the ball on his first dribble, maybe he was about to pick up his dribble, this situation could, with a stretch, be considered a fumble, that was touched by another player, thus ending the first dribble.

That's my story, but, this time, I'm not sticking to it. I gave it my best shot. I'm tired of filling in the holes left by the NFHS. I'm putting my shovel back in the tool shed, because I don't think I like what I'm shoveling. I've got a headache. "Good night, Mrs. Calabash. Wherever you are!"

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by efbyon

There appeared to be no evidence that suggested that the ball was unintentionally dropped or slipped by A1; otherwise, that would be a fumble in my book.

I doubt that he did it intentionally. Unless he intentionally did this to present a situation that demonstrates a hole in the NFHS rules.

Also: Three weeks. Not a single image. Not even an on topic, or a relevant image. When do I get my twelve step coin? I can use it when the NFHS does away with all jump balls, and we start tossing coins like in football, and soccer. The jump ball is a relic from the past and should be relegated to the ancient history section of the Basketball Hall of Fame. ChuckElias, and other Bay State officials, can go and visit it there. It will be right next to the peach basket, the change of status (80%), and the lack of action ("Play ball".). Now let me get down off my soapbox. I'm getting dizzy up here.

[refnrev]

I wish I could see the play. But from what I picture in my head from your description, I'm allowing play to continue. Either I'm missing something, or I'm having a real problem following your clinician's viewpoint here.

[Adam]

I got nuttin'.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Wow. So not only we can't post off-topic jokes for fear of the wrath of some esteemed members, but now we're actually allowed to post hostile, insulting messages for non-esteemed members?

This place has gone into the crapper in 3 short weeks. WTF?!?!?

Nope. While I stand by my opinion, it shouldn't have been posted in a public thread. Thanks (seriously) for pointing it out.

And, fwiw, I think the forum has been better in the past three weeks.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Nope. While I stand by my opinion, it shouldn't have been posted in a public thread.

I probably could've made my point a little better as well. It's gone now, if you want to just remove all traces.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I think the forum has been better in the past three weeks.

Agree. Scrapper1's prediction was true. As soon as we got our new rulebooks, and started attending our preseason meetings, the number of real basketball issues increased dramatically on the Forum.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Agree. Scrapper1's prediction was true.

Oh, the irony! LMAO. Sorry, Billy, that's another one of them there forbidden inside jokes between Bob and me.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Oh, the irony!

As noted in the title of my previous post, you should change your Forum member name to Nostra-Scrapper1-us. It's probably not too difficult to change your Forum name. Just click on the FAQ link, and follow the directions. I'm sure that you can handle that. Got any football predictions against the spread? I'm 0 for 6 in our office pool so far this season. Thank God, it's only five dollars a week. How about some stock market predictions? The market is costing me a lot more than five dollars each week. Has it bottomed out yet? What about the Red Sox in game seven? I know what ChuckElias would predict in his Annual Off Topic Baseball Thread? But, or course, he's biased. What's your prediction?

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

As noted in the title of my previous post, you should change your Forum member name to Nostra-Scrapper1-us. It's probably not too difficult to change your Forum name. Just click on the FAQ link, and follow the directions. I'm sure that you can handle that. Got any football predictions against the spread? I'm 0 for 6 in our office pool so far this season. Thank God, it's only five dollars a week. How about some stock market predictions? The market is costing me a lot more than five dollars each week. Has it bottomed out yet? What about the Red Sox in game seven? I know what ChuckElias would predict in his Annual Off Topic Baseball Thread? But, or course, he's biased. What's your prediction?

I don't believe it is possible, BillyMac. I wanted to change mine a few years ago (i.e., once I had been back in the saddle for a while, perhaps to SaddleSore or One With My Ride), alas there was no way.