Clock reads 0:00

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

If we don't have any knowledge of a specific number of tenths left, then we go back to a straight judgement call as to whether the shot left the shooter's hand before the horn. The rule effectively takes away that judgement on a shot if we definitely know there are only 2/10's left.

The rule is easy to interpret. The note is causing the problem. The note should reference a console that display 10th's when the scoreboard doesn't.

Just another example of a poorly written rule and a rule that needs a case play added.

Originally Posted by Smitty

And so here's a case where the rule does cover it all and still people complain.

No, it doesn't cover all bases. It doesn't specifically cover the console/scoreboard discrepency. If it covered all bases and was clearly written we wouldn't be having this debate.

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

The rule is easy to interpret. The note is causing the problem. The note should reference a console that display 10th's when the scoreboard doesn't.

Just another example of a poorly written rule and a rule that needs a case play added.



No, it doesn't cover all bases. It doesn't specifically cover the console/scoreboard discrepency. If it covered all bases and was clearly written we wouldn't be having this debate.

You're kidding me. You're so certain that the word "clock" only refers to the scoreboard that you would allow a catch and shoot when you absolutely know that there's only .2 seconds left in a quarter?

If you're saying that you would have a situation where the scoreboard is displaying 0:0 and the horn hasn't sounded, and you went to the table to check how much time is left on the console and the timer tells you .2 seconds - you wouldn't tell the coaches that there's only ,2 seconds left and therefore no catch and shoot will be allowed? You would actually allow a catch and shoot if you deemed the shot went off before the horn because the clock operator was a fraction of a second slow in starting the clock? To me, that would be all on you for allowing a clearly written rule to be broken. You're splitting hairs with the words clock and scoreboard when you have absolute knowledge that you cannot have a catch and shoot happen in the time left. That's just ridiculous.

[slow whistle]

Originally Posted by Smitty

You're kidding me. You're so certain that the word "clock" only refers to the scoreboard that you would allow a catch and shoot when you absolutely know that there's only .2 seconds left in a quarter?

If you're saying that you would have a situation where the scoreboard is displaying 0:0 and the horn hasn't sounded, and you went to the table to check how much time is left on the console and the timer tells you .2 seconds - you wouldn't tell the coaches that there's only ,2 seconds left and therefore no catch and shoot will be allowed? You would actually allow a catch and shoot if you deemed the shot went off before the horn because the clock operator was a fraction of a second slow in starting the clock? To me, that would be all on you for allowing a clearly written rule to be broken. You're splitting hairs with the words clock and scoreboard when you have absolute knowledge that you cannot have a catch and shoot happen in the time left. That's just ridiculous.

I think the reason I am questioning it is the administration. Maybe I have just never seen this situation before, but I would imagine if I was going to use it that I would go to the table see the time left on the console, and then notify the table and both coaches what we could/couldn't have based on the time remaining....I think that administration sounds reasonable, like I said I have just never seen it/used it/heard of it used before..

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Smitty

You're kidding me. You're so certain that the word "clock" only refers to the scoreboard that you would allow a catch and shoot when you absolutely know that there's only .2 seconds left in a quarter?

If you're saying that you would have a situation where the scoreboard is displaying 0:0 and the horn hasn't sounded, and you went to the table to check how much time is left on the console and the timer tells you .2 seconds - you wouldn't tell the coaches that there's only ,2 seconds left and therefore no catch and shoot will be allowed? You would actually allow a catch and shoot if you deemed the shot went off before the horn because the clock operator was a fraction of a second slow in starting the clock? To me, that would be all on you for allowing a clearly written rule to be broken. You're splitting hairs with the words clock and scoreboard when you have absolute knowledge that you cannot have a catch and shoot happen in the time left. That's just ridiculous.

I never gave my opinion one way or another on the play itself. I'm questioning the wording of the rule. And based on the posts in this thread the wording of the note obviously leaves room for debate. Which means you could have 3 officials on a court who have 3 different opinions on the situation.

You said the rule covers all bases. Well that'a a blatantly ridiculous statement b/c I gave you a black & white example of a base it doesn't carry.

Try reading more, ranting less.

[Smitty]

The only way your statement would hold any water is if you believe that the word 'clock' corresponds only to the scoreboard. Several people have provided arguments that seem to clearly define the clock as corresponding to the scoreboard and/or the console.

You also didn't answer any of my questions. If you would allow a catch and shoot when you know absolutely that there's .3 seconds or less on the clock, then you are breaking a rule that is very clearly written.

The note is there to cover the case where neither the scoreboard nor the console display 10th of seconds. All bases are covered.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Smitty

The only way your statement would hold any water is if you believe that the word 'clock' corresponds only to the scoreboard. Several people have provided arguments that seem to clearly define the clock as corresponding to the scoreboard and/or the console.

It's not what I believe that matters. It's what any official could believe that's the concern. And the fact that this thread is going on bodes to that.

The rule may be clear to you but a official who's a newbie and working a JV game out in Timbuktu with another inexperienced official will not have the benefit of your wisdom to guide them. They will only have the rulebook. And the rulebook makes no mention of the possibility that a console will reflect a different time than the scoreboard.

Now to answer your question. If I were the crew chief it would be discussed with my crew. And then it would be discussed with the table personnel. And then I would pull both coaches together and let them know how we would handle it. And all this would happen before the opening tip because if I didn't know about the clock ahead of time I would surely realize it once we got to the last minute of warm-ups. And based on what I just typed I'll let your common sense figure out what my crew would do.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

It's not what I believe that matters. It's what any official could believe that's the concern. And the fact that this thread is going on bodes to that.

The rule may be clear to you but a official who's a newbie and working a JV game out in Timbuktu with another inexperienced official will not have the benefit of your wisdom to guide them. They will only have the rulebook. And the rulebook makes no mention of the possibility that a console will reflect a different time than the scoreboard.

The book would be 10,000 pages if it covered every possible nuance and spelled everything out in such detail that a 3rd grader could understand it. Our job to understand the rule and what it is for and apply it accordingly. Sure, that stuff must be learned but we really don't want that in the rule book...it comes from other sources...case books, mentors, peers, etc.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

The book would be 10,000 pages if it covered every possible nuance and spelled everything out in such detail that a 3rd grader could understand it. Our job to understand the rule and what it is for and apply it accordingly. Sure, that stuff must be learned but we really don't want that in the rule book...it comes from other sources...case books, mentors, peers, etc.

To me the Case Book and Rule Book go hand-in-hand when discussing rules clarification. This is not a nuance. The equipment is set up like this in a lot of gyms. All it would take is a Case Play to alleviate any doubt. We're not talking about some convoluted scenario with a phlethora of variables. Just a straight forward "if the console has 10th's and the scoreboard doesn't then you do this in a) and this in b).

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Smitty

The note is there to cover the case where neither the scoreboard nor the console display 10th of seconds. All bases are covered.

I don't know, this doesn't make sense.

If neither the scoreboard nor the console display 10ths, then this rule cannot apply. The note is not needed, as there is no way to determine the precise time left to the 10ths.

Unless the note is there to prevent officials from doing what they shouldn't do anyway; make an assumption of how much time remains.

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I don't know, this doesn't make sense.

If neither the scoreboard nor the console display 10ths, then this rule cannot apply. The note is not needed, as there is no way to determine the precise time left to the 10ths.

Unless the note is there to prevent officials from doing what they shouldn't do anyway; make an assumption of how much time remains.

I look at it exactly the opposite way. If they didn't have the note in there, just as many people would complain about "what if the scoreboard and console don't display 10ths of seconds?". Think about it. If the note wasn't there, it would imply, if you read the rule as is, that somehow you need to be able to know if there's .3 seconds or less on the clock - regardless of what kind of displays are available. Having the note allows you to cover that case.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Smitty

If you're saying that you would have a situation where the scoreboard is displaying 0:0 and the horn hasn't sounded, and you went to the table to check how much time is left on the console and the timer tells you .2 seconds - you wouldn't tell the coaches that there's only ,2 seconds left and therefore no catch and shoot will be allowed?

I would tell that .2 was the time left, but I would not tell that a catch and shoot would not be allowed. It is up to us to pass along information relevant to a particular game situation. It is up to the coach to know the rules.