Clock reads 0:00

[slow whistle]

Originally Posted by Smitty

You're kidding me. You're so certain that the word "clock" only refers to the scoreboard that you would allow a catch and shoot when you absolutely know that there's only .2 seconds left in a quarter?

If you're saying that you would have a situation where the scoreboard is displaying 0:0 and the horn hasn't sounded, and you went to the table to check how much time is left on the console and the timer tells you .2 seconds - you wouldn't tell the coaches that there's only ,2 seconds left and therefore no catch and shoot will be allowed? You would actually allow a catch and shoot if you deemed the shot went off before the horn because the clock operator was a fraction of a second slow in starting the clock? To me, that would be all on you for allowing a clearly written rule to be broken. You're splitting hairs with the words clock and scoreboard when you have absolute knowledge that you cannot have a catch and shoot happen in the time left. That's just ridiculous.

I think the reason I am questioning it is the administration. Maybe I have just never seen this situation before, but I would imagine if I was going to use it that I would go to the table see the time left on the console, and then notify the table and both coaches what we could/couldn't have based on the time remaining....I think that administration sounds reasonable, like I said I have just never seen it/used it/heard of it used before..

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Smitty

You're kidding me. You're so certain that the word "clock" only refers to the scoreboard that you would allow a catch and shoot when you absolutely know that there's only .2 seconds left in a quarter?

If you're saying that you would have a situation where the scoreboard is displaying 0:0 and the horn hasn't sounded, and you went to the table to check how much time is left on the console and the timer tells you .2 seconds - you wouldn't tell the coaches that there's only ,2 seconds left and therefore no catch and shoot will be allowed? You would actually allow a catch and shoot if you deemed the shot went off before the horn because the clock operator was a fraction of a second slow in starting the clock? To me, that would be all on you for allowing a clearly written rule to be broken. You're splitting hairs with the words clock and scoreboard when you have absolute knowledge that you cannot have a catch and shoot happen in the time left. That's just ridiculous.

I never gave my opinion one way or another on the play itself. I'm questioning the wording of the rule. And based on the posts in this thread the wording of the note obviously leaves room for debate. Which means you could have 3 officials on a court who have 3 different opinions on the situation.

You said the rule covers all bases. Well that'a a blatantly ridiculous statement b/c I gave you a black & white example of a base it doesn't carry.

Try reading more, ranting less.

[Smitty]

The only way your statement would hold any water is if you believe that the word 'clock' corresponds only to the scoreboard. Several people have provided arguments that seem to clearly define the clock as corresponding to the scoreboard and/or the console.

You also didn't answer any of my questions. If you would allow a catch and shoot when you know absolutely that there's .3 seconds or less on the clock, then you are breaking a rule that is very clearly written.

The note is there to cover the case where neither the scoreboard nor the console display 10th of seconds. All bases are covered.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Smitty

The only way your statement would hold any water is if you believe that the word 'clock' corresponds only to the scoreboard. Several people have provided arguments that seem to clearly define the clock as corresponding to the scoreboard and/or the console.

It's not what I believe that matters. It's what any official could believe that's the concern. And the fact that this thread is going on bodes to that.

The rule may be clear to you but a official who's a newbie and working a JV game out in Timbuktu with another inexperienced official will not have the benefit of your wisdom to guide them. They will only have the rulebook. And the rulebook makes no mention of the possibility that a console will reflect a different time than the scoreboard.

Now to answer your question. If I were the crew chief it would be discussed with my crew. And then it would be discussed with the table personnel. And then I would pull both coaches together and let them know how we would handle it. And all this would happen before the opening tip because if I didn't know about the clock ahead of time I would surely realize it once we got to the last minute of warm-ups. And based on what I just typed I'll let your common sense figure out what my crew would do.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Smitty

If you're saying that you would have a situation where the scoreboard is displaying 0:0 and the horn hasn't sounded, and you went to the table to check how much time is left on the console and the timer tells you .2 seconds - you wouldn't tell the coaches that there's only ,2 seconds left and therefore no catch and shoot will be allowed?

I would tell that .2 was the time left, but I would not tell that a catch and shoot would not be allowed. It is up to us to pass along information relevant to a particular game situation. It is up to the coach to know the rules.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

It's not what I believe that matters. It's what any official could believe that's the concern. And the fact that this thread is going on bodes to that.

The rule may be clear to you but a official who's a newbie and working a JV game out in Timbuktu with another inexperienced official will not have the benefit of your wisdom to guide them. They will only have the rulebook. And the rulebook makes no mention of the possibility that a console will reflect a different time than the scoreboard.

The book would be 10,000 pages if it covered every possible nuance and spelled everything out in such detail that a 3rd grader could understand it. Our job to understand the rule and what it is for and apply it accordingly. Sure, that stuff must be learned but we really don't want that in the rule book...it comes from other sources...case books, mentors, peers, etc.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

The book would be 10,000 pages if it covered every possible nuance and spelled everything out in such detail that a 3rd grader could understand it. Our job to understand the rule and what it is for and apply it accordingly. Sure, that stuff must be learned but we really don't want that in the rule book...it comes from other sources...case books, mentors, peers, etc.

To me the Case Book and Rule Book go hand-in-hand when discussing rules clarification. This is not a nuance. The equipment is set up like this in a lot of gyms. All it would take is a Case Play to alleviate any doubt. We're not talking about some convoluted scenario with a phlethora of variables. Just a straight forward "if the console has 10th's and the scoreboard doesn't then you do this in a) and this in b).

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

To me the Case Book and Rule Book go hand-in-hand when discussing rules clarification. This is not a nuance. The equipment is set up like this in a lot of gyms. All it would take is a Case Play to alleviate any doubt. We're not talking about some convoluted scenario with a phlethora of variables. Just a straight forward "if the console has 10th's and the scoreboard doesn't then you do this in a) and this in b).

BNR - I'm not trying to be a pain, but what rule or case are you using that is presenting any type of confusion as to whether the display on the console cannot be used?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

To me the Case Book and Rule Book go hand-in-hand when discussing rules clarification. This is not a nuance. The equipment is set up like this in a lot of gyms. All it would take is a Case Play to alleviate any doubt. We're not talking about some convoluted scenario with a phlethora of variables. Just a straight forward "if the console has 10th's and the scoreboard doesn't then you do this in a) and this in b).

For this one situation, sure....but what about all the other equally simple situational variations that can be conceived....how many times have you seen people here refuse to belive something because the exact same case (including the phase of the moon) was not precisely spelled out for them in the rule book? The fact is that some people need (or at least think they need) the entire set of possible situations to be explcitly defined where many are able to take a relatively simple framework, a basic understanding of the game itself, and common sense and correctly interpolate a ruling for nearly any situation that may occur. Neither are wrong, but the latter results in a concise and compact set of rules that can be understood (as apposed to a set of thousands of plays to memorize).

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Smitty

The note is there to cover the case where neither the scoreboard nor the console display 10th of seconds. All bases are covered.

I don't know, this doesn't make sense.

If neither the scoreboard nor the console display 10ths, then this rule cannot apply. The note is not needed, as there is no way to determine the precise time left to the 10ths.

Unless the note is there to prevent officials from doing what they shouldn't do anyway; make an assumption of how much time remains.

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I don't know, this doesn't make sense.

If neither the scoreboard nor the console display 10ths, then this rule cannot apply. The note is not needed, as there is no way to determine the precise time left to the 10ths.

Unless the note is there to prevent officials from doing what they shouldn't do anyway; make an assumption of how much time remains.

I look at it exactly the opposite way. If they didn't have the note in there, just as many people would complain about "what if the scoreboard and console don't display 10ths of seconds?". Think about it. If the note wasn't there, it would imply, if you read the rule as is, that somehow you need to be able to know if there's .3 seconds or less on the clock - regardless of what kind of displays are available. Having the note allows you to cover that case.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

BNR - I'm not trying to be a pain, but what rule or case are you using that is presenting any type of confusion as to whether the display on the console cannot be used?

My first evidence is that several posters in this forum were not clear as to whether or not you should use the console.

Secondly, many refs, experienced and not experienced, may not even realize that it's even an option.

Thirdly, the language in the rule could be interpreted by a reasonably intelligent person to mean that you only use 10th's if it's seen on the scoreboard.

Sometimes we in the forum fail to realize we are the minority when it comes to officiating. Most officials don't spend as much time talking about the craft as we do. We have case plays for situations that are far less important and complex as this. So IMVHO this is something that should be addressed in the Case Book. No where else in the rule book (as far as I know) is it addressed that the clock and console could reflect different times. But now we are to assume that every official who wants on the court will instinctively realize what to do in this situation.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

For this one situation, sure....but what about all the other equally simple situational variations that can be conceived....how many times have you seen people here refuse to belive something because the exact same case (including the phase of the moon) was not precisely spelled out for them in the rule book? The fact is that some people need (or at least think they need) the entire set of possible situations to be explcitly defined where many are able to take a relatively simple framework, a basic understanding of the game itself, and common sense and correctly interpolate a ruling for nearly any situation that may occur. Neither are wrong, but the latter results in a concise and compact set of rules that can be understood (as apposed to a set of thousands of plays to memorize).

Then why do we have a Case Book? Should the criteria for Case Book submission be "only include something if the majority of the Official Forum on officiating.com don't understand the rule"? There are many case plays that for me aren't needed because I fully understand those rules as written. Should those case plays be deleted since I already understand them?

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

No where else in the rule book (as far as I know) is it addressed that the clock and console could reflect different times.

Maybe that's part of the confusion - the clock and console don't show "different times", they show exactly the same time; it's just each display shows a different degree of accuracy.

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Then why do we have a Case Book? Should the criteria for Case Book submission be "only include something if the majority of the Official Forum on officiating.com don't understand the rule"? There are many case plays that for me aren't needed because I fully understand those rules as written. Should those case plays be deleted since I already understand them?

I believe the Case Book plays are included because there is enough "real world" experience with confusion on how the rule(s) should be interpreted. In this play, even though there may be a little confusion as we discuss it, how many times do you think it has actually come up? Has this exact situation ever come up in a game you've officiated? I know it never has in my many years of officiating. So I'm sure they take into account how many times a particular rule or situation causes confusion, vs. covering all the possible scenerios.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

In this play, even though there may be a little confusion as we discuss it, how many times do you think it has actually come up? Has this exact situation ever come up in a game you've officiated? I know it never has in my many years of officiating.

I've had it occur a small number of times (maybe once every few years).....Whistle sounds, scoreboard shows 0:00, no horn...the next thing I do is to confirm with the timer that the auto-horn was enabled. I've had timers respond with...."Yes...and there are 0.4 seconds left on the clock." Great, and everyone knows how much time is left.

The likelihood of this happening is primarily dependant on a gym in your area having a board that doesn't show 10ths while the console does. Rarely do they mismatch. Only then do the odds of hitting the situation really come into play.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Maybe that's part of the confusion - the clock and console don't show "different times", they show exactly the same time; it's just each display shows a different degree of accuracy...

The fact that you say they are exactly the same and yet different at the same time speaks to the potential for confusion.

And to answer Camron's question, yes I have seen a few gyms with equipment like this. I'll call Mary and see what she has to say.