inadvertent whistle? pt. 2

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

So now answer me this? the offensive player is not awarded a field goal attempt in the stat box? and the defender is not awarded a blocked shot, but instead what?

I'll answer. Who cares? I don't mean to be mean-spirited, but honestly, what do those questions have to do with the rule in question? Are we going to rule incorrectly on certain plays so that the stat lines make the players happy? Really?

It seems fairly clear that you are more familiar with the NBA ruleset than with the NFHS/NCAA rules. (And there's nothing wrong with that!! I'm not trying to put you down. I think I read that you work some of the minor leagues in pro ball, and maybe D-League?) In the NBA ruleset, I believe that team control would end in the initial scenario, regardless of whether the try was released or not. Am I correct about that? Any time the defender deflects the ball, it becomes a "loose ball" situation with no team control, right?

The point is, you can't allow yourself to use the pro rules in an NCAA game. Just like I can't allow myself to use the NCAA rules when working a high school game. What if I granted an extra full time-out to a team (without the technical foul) in the closing seconds of a high school game and said that it's better for the game to have 4 full time-outs? I'd get ripped to shreds, and rightly so. And while I think that Nevadaref's comments about being "dumb and full of . . ." are probably out of line, he made them because, in this particular case, either you don't know the rule or you seem inclined to simply ignore the proper rule.

If you're going to work NCAA or NFHS games, you owe it to the participants to know those rulesets and apply them correctly. On the plus side, you're here on this forum, hopefully to learn them better.

[Scrapper1]

P.S. -- I agree that there are times when "microdotting" a play is not good for the game. (For example, borderline violations like 3-seconds and palming in the backcourt.) I disagree, however, that this is a case of microdotting. This is a case of applying a clear rule to an obvious situation. JMHO.

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

I'll answer. Who cares? I don't mean to be mean-spirited, but honestly, what do those questions have to do with the rule in question? Are we going to rule incorrectly on certain plays so that the stat lines make the players happy? Really?

It seems fairly clear that you are more familiar with the NBA ruleset than with the NFHS/NCAA rules. (And there's nothing wrong with that!! I'm not trying to put you down. I think I read that you work some of the minor leagues in pro ball, and maybe D-League?) In the NBA ruleset, I believe that team control would end in the initial scenario, regardless of whether the try was released or not. Am I correct about that? Any time the defender deflects the ball, it becomes a "loose ball" situation with no team control, right?

The point is, you can't allow yourself to use the pro rules in an NCAA game. Just like I can't allow myself to use the NCAA rules when working a high school game. What if I granted an extra full time-out to a team (without the technical foul) in the closing seconds of a high school game and said that it's better for the game to have 4 full time-outs? I'd get ripped to shreds, and rightly so. And while I think that Nevadaref's comments about being "dumb and full of . . ." are probably out of line, he made them because, in this particular case, either you don't know the rule or you seem inclined to simply ignore the proper rule.

If you're going to work NCAA or NFHS games, you owe it to the participants to know those rulesets and apply them correctly. On the plus side, you're here on this forum, hopefully to learn them better.

You're right about the pro rule, the ball does become a "loose" ball, which makes 10 times more sense to me, cause if we then have an inadvertent whistle then we can have a jump ball and everbody gets a fair shake at getting to have possession but in HS and college, you are screwing the other team over by saying the team who just "shot" it gets to retain possession.

I attempt not to use pro rules in my games, but it is what i know best so when I'm crew chief in my college games I ask for help from my crew and when i'm not CC I keep my mouth shut.

I will admit on this play that i brought up i was totally ignorant to the fact that the ball had to leave the player's hand. That seems ridiculous but it is what it is. I asked the question for a reason and received my answer. I'm not trying to argue it at all, it just irritates me that there are some insanely ridiculous non common sense rules out there. Thanks for the help. Maybe i won't screw it up next time.

I probably shouldn't be posting on here yet.... my birthday is tmrw and I still won't be able to rent a car!!

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

I probably shouldn't be posting on here yet.... my birthday is tmrw and I still won't be able to rent a car!!

Matt's is today and now he can...remember that the next time you travel with him.


BTW, there are supervisors out there who call this "micro-dotting" the rule. There are others who expect the rule to be enforced to letter. Gotta know for whom you work every night you step on the court.

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Matt's is today and now he can...remember that the next time you travel with him.


BTW, there are supervisors out there who call this "micro-dotting" the rule. There are others who expect the rule to be enforced to letter. Gotta know for whom you work every night you step on the court.

yeah you're right his birthday is today. We can rent them any way. The league gives us cards and the rental company never says a word, but since it seems we're going by the exact letter of the law... matt can absolutely rent a car, legally, now.

I talked to him yesterday and we want to get some dang games scheduled so bad!!!!!!

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

it just irritates me that there are some insanely ridiculous non common sense rules out there.

There may be some rules like that, but IMHO, this is not one of them. The definition is very clear on how team control ends. I don't think that the definition is even close to insane or ridiculous. It might not be 100% in line with what non-referees think it is, but oh well. If you have team control, you continue to have it until you release a try or the other team gains control.

That makes MUCH more sense to me than saying, for example, that there is team control during a throw-in, even though there was never any player control involved.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

That makes MUCH more sense to me than saying, for example, that there is team control during a throw-in, even though there was never any player control involved.

So, question. 6 team fouls on Team A. A1 is has a throw-in. A1 reaches out with one hand pushes B1 to give himself some room for the throw-in. What type of foul do we have?

[slow whistle]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

So, question. 6 team fouls on Team A. A1 is has a throw-in. A1 reaches out with one hand pushes B1 to give himself some room for the throw-in. What type of foul do we have?

Intentional.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by slow whistle

Intentional.

Concur, though there's no direct rules support for it.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

So, question. 6 team fouls on Team A. A1 is has a throw-in. A1 reaches out with one hand pushes B1 to give himself some room for the throw-in. What type of foul do we have?

Originally Posted by slow whistle

Intentional.

Ok, A1 has the ball in both hands and turns to throw the ball and his elbow unintentionally strikes B1 in the side of the head?

[slow whistle]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Ok, A1 has the ball in both hands and turns to throw the ball and his elbow unintentionally strikes B1 in the side of the head?

Personal foul on A1, B1 shoots bonus (I believe you said we were already to 6 team fouls before this play). No team/player control during throw-in so not sure what else we can have...