Coach drags out the rule book

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

OTOH, I keep a full size Chuck bobblehead figurine in my bag. I pull it out during pregame and the entire crew rubs it's bobbly little head for luck. It works much better than my lucky rocket ship underwear ever did.

Please don't tell us you used to have your crew rub your underwear, especially not while you were wearing it!

[barkeep49]

I'm currently working on becoming an official (I've finished the test, but haven't sent it in yet since I want to double check my answers). I have previously coached travel youth basketball, 4th and 5th grade. So we're not talking varsity here, though many of the refs we get also do varsity. In particular the home court refs my park district gets are very good. Last year, between my two teams (from two different PDs), the other team got whistled for 5 technicals (which I thought was a lot). In one of those cases the player who I wanted to shoot the FT was already on the court. In the other 4, as luck would have it, he was not. Only one time was I allowed to insert my preferred player. I never argued the decision in anyway (after all, they've just given some other guy a T and I'm the good guy at this point ), but I did grow frustrated that 60% of the time I was not able to have my preferred player shooting FTs after a T. Was the best thing there for me to just keep my mouth shut, as I did? Or would there have been a way for me to get the rule enforced correctly?

[Back In The Saddle]

You might just phrase it in the form of a question with an obvious answer...

"Any eligible player or substitute can show these shots, right ref?"

...as you're walking Little Johnny to the table to check in.

This, IMHO, has both the advantage of using rule book terminology, which might just jog the ref's memory, and being non-confrontational. Because you're walking Johnny to the table, if the ref isn't sure, you may just get him in anyway.

If the ref doesn't let you bring in a sub, then maybe contact whomever is in charge of getting refs for the park district the next day. Who knows, it may even result in an email going out to all of the officials "reminding" them about proper procedure on this. In which case, you've done more good than just getting one set of refs to let you do the right thing.

Just my $0.02

[CoachP]

Originally Posted by barkeep49

youth basketball, 4th and 5th grade.

the other team got whistled for 5 technicals (which I thought was a lot).


Was the best thing there for me to just keep my mouth shut, as I did?

Yes, you did the best thing. I wouldn't even blink wrong if the officials were that T happy!!

Why in the world were they assesed 5 techs?

[grunewar]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

....then maybe contact whomever is in charge of getting refs for the park district the next day. Who knows, it may even result in an email going out to all of the officials "reminding" them about proper procedure on this. In which case, you've done more good than just getting one set of refs to let you do the right thing.

Just my $0.02

Absolutely concur.

While your refs seem above the level of "Rec League Officials" I see in my leagues, we do misapply a rule or two every now and again (especially if it's league/age specific). As one of the more knowledgeable officials (which isn't really saying much), I sometimes send a note to the Ref Assignor and cc: the League Commish and let them know some of my observations (and I let them know when I make an error too) in hopes they will send out an informative, non-accusatory, instructional note out to the officials and do some good for the league.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by barkeep49

I'm currently working on becoming an official (I've finished the test, but haven't sent it in yet since I want to double check my answers). I have previously coached travel youth basketball, 4th and 5th grade. So we're not talking varsity here, though many of the refs we get also do varsity. In particular the home court refs my park district gets are very good. Last year, between my two teams (from two different PDs), the other team got whistled for 5 technicals (which I thought was a lot). In one of those cases the player who I wanted to shoot the FT was already on the court. In the other 4, as luck would have it, he was not. Only one time was I allowed to insert my preferred player. I never argued the decision in anyway (after all, they've just given some other guy a T and I'm the good guy at this point ), but I did grow frustrated that 60% of the time I was not able to have my preferred player shooting FTs after a T. Was the best thing there for me to just keep my mouth shut, as I did? Or would there have been a way for me to get the rule enforced correctly?

Yes, you are allowed to have whomever you wish shoot the FTs for the technical foul issued to the opposing team.

It makes no sense from an officiating standpoint to only allow once out of 4 times a "preferred player to shot the FTs".

The officials either are certain they think they know the rule, or they are not certain that they know the rule. If they are certain that they think they know the rule, then they should have allowed all or none "preferred players" to shoot the Ts. If they know they don't know the rule, then they should have allowed the preferred player 2 times, because then they are incorrect at most 2 times, but are also correct 2 times.

Either way, the officials weren't consistent in this game, and that frustrates coaches. Right, barkeep49?

[Adam]

they were different games, Juggler.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

they were different games, Juggler.

Ooops! Thanks, Snaqs.

[RefTip]

Last year I was coaching 7th/8th grade team playing a league game. The game was very close , opposing coach gets a T and I have my player shoot the FT's. He makes the first one and the official gives us the ball for a throw in. I go to the table and talk with the official about our 2nd FT and he says " only 1 FT for a bench technical " and walks off. I tried to get his attention again but no luck. At half-time I motion him over and discuss this with him and say " Let's talk with John just to be sure so the next time I officiate I don't get it wrong " and direct him to a fellow official ( 20 year Varsity ) in the stands. We talk with him and get the correct ruling without making the official feel like an idiot. I think I handled it correctly but I can see where it would be a frustrating situation for someone dealing with a incorrect rule. Just my 2 cents !


Tip

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Yes, you are allowed to have whomever you wish shoot the FTs for the technical foul issued to the opposing team.

Almost all the time. Don't forget the rule that you have to sit a tick.

[Ref_in_Alberta]

Originally Posted by CoachP

Varsity level.
Team A down by one point. I am Coach A.
A1 hits jumper, end of game buzzer sounds as ball is passing thru basket as referee is blowing whistle for a foul on A2.
Ref waives off basket as explained in Fiasco's OP.

In this case, probably at the scorers table, there will be 2 coaches and 2-3 referees. If the referees confer that the basket is not counted, I WILL bring out my rule book. No fanfare, no stomping and snorting, just a simple rule discussion. I will not take it to the local watering hole. If the referees refuse to look at it or take offense, then the AD will be making a phone call.

Which would you prefer? A call from your assignor telling you that you kicked it -or- fix it before you leave?

Again, before I get flamed, my position is for THIS EXACT SITCH ONLY.

Tell me I'm wrong and defend it and I will take it like a man and learn.

My response to your question CoachP is this...

1. You as a coach (& your opposing coach) would be nowhere near where my partner(s) discuss this play. You (as a coach) do not get to inject your opinion on a rule in this case. You both would stay within the confines of your team bench area. So you would have no chance to pull out your copy of a rule book. Mine stays in the locker room, your's should be in your office.

2a. I would hope that my partner(s) and I would have enough guts to get the call right. Which of course is in the play as you described, is count the team a basket and report the foul. What I'd be questioning is if there is time left on the clock when the foul occurred. If the whistle is before the horn and I have definate knowledge of the time remaining, it's going back on the clock and if we're in the bonus/penalty we're shooting.

2b. If for whatever reason we get the play wrong and cancel the basket and the game is over. You won't be talking to me or my partner(s) either. We are leaving the court and getting to our locker room asap.

3. So to answer your question of if I'd rather fix it or hear about it from my assignor... well my first response is to get it right, however if we don't get it right, I'm going to hear about it from my assignor anyways, so I don't need the double whammy as it were.

Also, IMHO if a coach pulls out a rule book, they are getting a Technical Foul, to me this act is disrespectful (see below). Not that the following applies to you folks stateside, but I'm sure NF & NCAA rules have something similar to the following taken from the 2008 FIBA rules ...

38.1 Rules of conduct

38.1.1 The proper conduct of the game demands the full and loyal cooperation of the members of both teams (players, substitutes, coaches, assistant coaches, excluded players and team followers) with the officials, table officials and commissioner, if present.

38.1.2 Each team shall do its best to secure victory, but this must be done in the spirit of sportsmanship and fair play.

Under definitions it the FIBA book states:

38.3.1 A technical foul is a player non-contact foul of a behavioural nature including, but not limited to:

- Disrespectfully communicating with the officials, the commissioner, the table officials or the opponents.

My 2 cents...

[Adam]

Originally Posted by CoachP

Yes, you did the best thing. I wouldn't even blink wrong if the officials were that T happy!!

Why in the world were they assesed 5 techs?

they were different games.

[Stat-Man]

MS 7th grade game... Getting ready to shoot FT and the visiting team HC and referee claim only 5 players can be in the lane under NFHS rules. I had no problem telling the R's partner that it's six in the lane and showing it to him in the rules. Of course, I was polite about it and did it in a way not to show up the officials (especially after initially reading this post ). But I would never do this for a judgement call, just something as obvious as this or if the officials needed assistance with league-specific rules which are quite prevalent in MS and CYO ball here.

Afew years back, I was at a college game where the home crew erroneously changed the AP arrow (we had a foul before the throw in was complete, meaing the arrow shoudl have stayed with us). When they half ended, I told the officials the arrow should not have been switched because of the foul, but (in this ara, anyways), they didn't seem to knwo the rule, so I asked if they could at least check during their halftime meeting. WQhen they came out, they said while the rule section I cited was off by one section, I was correct, and they directed the table to switch the arrow back. Of course the table crew and opposing coach weren't too happy. I should have told them they could have 2 of the next 3

Now on the other hand, I'm not sure I'd want a coach digging out the rule book during the game either. That could be a recipe for disaster