Coach drags out the rule book

[CoachP]

As not to hijack Fiascos thread about emailing or calling a coach, Here’s a new thread.

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Yep. I think the problem with that is everyone can see what you're doing, and all it does is show up the official. In fact, it pretty easily falls under the penalty for 10-4-1(b), and, depending on the crowd reaction, 10-4-1(f). (Since you apparently have one those rule book-thingies, you know what I'm referencing. )

I know, for the most part, you just want to make things right, but bringing out the rule book during the game will not work. If you want to discuss a rule after the game, at the local watering hole, in a friendly manner, I have no problem with that. I don't like it if I screw up a rule, and I venture to say almost all us would feel the same. But we will not have that type of discussion during the game.

Along those same lines, have you ever gone up to a ref after a game and apologized for using the wrong strategy at the end of a game, and it caused an overtime? How would you feel if an official came up to you during the game with a Dean Smith or Bob Knight book to point out what you're doing is wrong? Same therory - good discussion well before or after a game, just not during.

First of all, the Dean Smith/Bobby Knight comparison is apples and oranges. Not the “same theory”. Those are books chock full of opinions and strategies based on their experiences, not on rules. For example, there is not a rule that says I have to call a timeout when the opponent goes on a 10-0 run, nor do I have to switch on all screens. The rule book, however, is different. The officials’ job is to make sure a contest is finished where both teams play within a written set of rules.

Secondly, because of what I have learned here, I would never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never drag out a rule book during the course of a game. Nor would I promote it to other coaches. In fact, as an 8th year varsity coach, there is probably only one time where the thought even crossed my mind. (“Coach, the ball went in and we counted the basket, therefore it cannot be an intentional foul”)

Thirdly, the sitch I questioned:

Varsity level.
Team A down by one point. I am Coach A.
A1 hits jumper, end of game buzzer sounds as ball is passing thru basket as referee is blowing whistle for a foul on A2.
Ref waives off basket as explained in Fiasco's OP.

In this case, probably at the scorers table, there will be 2 coaches and 2-3 referees. If the referees confer that the basket is not counted, I WILL bring out my rule book. No fanfare, no stomping and snorting, just a simple rule discussion. I will not take it to the local watering hole. If the referees refuse to look at it or take offense, then the AD will be making a phone call.

Which would you prefer? A call from your assignor telling you that you kicked it -or- fix it before you leave?

Again, before I get flamed, my position is for THIS EXACT SITCH ONLY.

Tell me I'm wrong and defend it and I will take it like a man and learn.

[rlarry]

Coach, if it was me, it's a T to pull out the rule book. same as if i pass on a travel and I look up to see a coach doing his imitation of the Temptations. If i was a coach I'd point out to the official that the only way a shot in the air is canceled is if the foul is on the shooter. If that doesn't jog his memory, then I toss my rule book at his feet, tell him he should read it some time, grab my jacket and head to the locker room. Hope you have a good season

[jdmara]

I don't know if I would be so quick to T the coach as I've never had this happen before. HOWEVER, I rely that the three (3) officials on the court can sort through the situation and come to the right conclusion. At the varsity level, the three officials should have amassed enough rules knowledge to come to the right decision when it's all sorted out.

I don't believe I would react too kindly to a coach pulling out the rules book BUT I believe I would just ignore the gesture and huddle with the other officials on-court.

Just my $.02. Maybe in a game situation I would react differently

-Josh

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by jdmara

I don't know if I would be so quick to T the coach as I've never had this happen before. HOWEVER, I rely that the three (3) officials on the court can sort through the situation and come to the right conclusion. At the varsity level, the three officials should have amassed enough rules knowledge to come to the right decision when it's all sorted out.

I don't believe I would react too kindly to a coach pulling out the rules book BUT I believe I would just ignore the gesture and huddle with the other officials on-court.

Just my $.02. Maybe in a game situation I would react differently

-Josh

I agree completely with these statements in red.

[M&M Guy]

Coach, I see you've had your caffeine this morning...

To address the coaching book issue, it was a far-fetched idea to make a point - do you want an official to point out in front of everybody that your coaching methods and philosophy differ from some of the greatest coaches of all time, and that's why their kids are losing? Of course not; you're the one being paid to coach, so you are the one that gets to make the coaching decisions, right or wrong. There's a time and a place to discuss those things, whether it's in the A.D.'s office, Booster Club meeting, or the local watering hole. But during the game is not one of those places. As an official, I would never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never discuss coaching strategy during the game, even if means a specific bad coaching decision might lead us to overtime and I will now be working longer without any additional pay. Or how about a coaching decision to let less talented kids try to be more aggressive, and our crew now has to call many more fouls than necessary? Maybe we can e-mail our concerns to the A.D. after the game, but it is not our place to tell that coach what they are doing wrong during the game, even though that coach's decisions directly affects the officiating crew. No matter how "right" an official feels about a bad coaching decision, it is simple courtesy to not show up the coach in front of others during the game.

Officials are paid to arbitrate the rules, so they get to do that, right or wrong. Yes, we make mistakes that could affect the outcome of a game, but it is not a coach's or player's job to tell us or show us the rules, even if we screw them up. A "separation of powers", so to speak. Of course, you can still voice your opinion (in a civilized manner) about the official's decision, and any good officiating crew will attempt to get a situation correct if there's a legitimate concern. But bringing a rule book to the discussion during the game crosses that line from trying to express an opinion to showing up the crew in front of other people, even if you are right. Do I want that call from the A.D. or the assignor after the game? Hell no, but just as bad, I don't want to be the one to screw up a rule either. In fact, I'll probably be getting a call from the assignor anyway if I screw up the rule and allow you to correct me.

By the way, you did neglect to address how bringing a rule book to the official does not fall under 10-4-1(b)?

[CoachP]

The bottle of Diet Mountain Dew lists the first 2 ingredients as water and orange juice….Caffiene is listed much later.

Far-fetched is correct….and is still apples and oranges and not the argument I am trying to make. I am talking game- over- buzzer- ending- rule kick. No fanfare, no disrespect, just a conversation at the table –before you leave the visual confines of the gym-where I disagree with a rule kick (not a judgement call) by pulling out the actual rule.

If you T me for it, using 10-4-1(b) then so be it I guess. Game is decided anyway. I'll sleep at night.

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

In fact, I'll probably be getting a call from the assignor anyway if I screw up the rule and allow you to correct me.

If that is true across this board, then I'm "taking it like a man" and reconsidering. Good comments from others so far, also.

Originally Posted by CoachP

I am talking game- over- buzzer- ending- rule kick. No fanfare, no disrespect, just a conversation at the table –before you leave the visual confines of the gym-where I disagree with a rule kick (not a judgement call) by pulling out the actual rule.

With all due respect coach, you're contridicting yourself.
If we're having conversation at table after the final horn has sounded... the game is not yet over.

[bob jenkins]

I would NEVER welcome a coach "pulling out the rule book" whether during the game or just after it ends.

I'd be much more likley to listen to a coach who ASKS, "Can we check the rule book?" or (even better) "Can you check with your partners?"

[LDUB]

Originally Posted by CoachP

Varsity level.
Team A down by one point. I am Coach A.
A1 hits jumper, end of game buzzer sounds as ball is passing thru basket as referee is blowing whistle for a foul on A2.
Ref waives off basket as explained in Fiasco's OP.

In this case, probably at the scorers table, there will be 2 coaches and 2-3 referees. If the referees confer that the basket is not counted, I WILL bring out my rule book.

So the official confer and decide the goal doesn't count and the game is over. They turn from their huddle and signal no score and the run off the court. Exactly at what point during that process do you intend to bring out your rule book?

[CoachP]

Originally Posted by Ch1town

With all due respect coach, you're contridicting yourself.
If we're having conversation at table after the final horn has sounded... the game is not yet over.

What I said and what I meant are not the same thing, I did not say what I just said.

[CoachP]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

or (even better) "Can you check with your partners?"

Partners already confered in my OP.

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I'd be much more likley to listen to a coach who ASKS, "Can we check the rule book?"

I hear that. Good point.

[CoachP]

Originally Posted by LDUB

So the official confer and decide the goal doesn't count and the game is over. They turn from their huddle and signal no score and the run off the court. Exactly at what point during that process do you intend to bring out your rule book?

With that process , I don't. They ran off the court. But if I chase them, then M&M will hit me with 10-4-1(b)

[SWMOzebra]

In the MSHSAA "Official's Manual" (available at mshsaa.org), there is on page 9 a heading titled "Procedures to Follow in Case a Game is Protested."

Essentially, if the head coach feels there has been a misapplication of a rule by contest officials, he may "file a formal, verbal complaint with the game officials who will then notify the opposing coach immediately." Note this does not allow any protest judgment calls.

Under paragraph C of this section, the protesting coach is allowed to produce the NFHS rule book for the sport in question and show game officials the appropriate rule reference and how it was misapplied (in his/her opinion). There is a maximum of 10 minutes allowed for this to take place. According to this section: "If a rule reference(s), case book play(s), or other information from MSHSAA Rule Meeting Announcement and/or MSHSAA Sport Manual is found that indicates a misapplication of a rule has occurred, the official's decision shall be corrected at that time before any further action occurs, and the game shall be resumed from the point of interruption after the correction."

Finally, here's paragraph G: "Officials that fail to allow a protest of rules application or fail to make the appropriate change when shown the rule are subject to suspension of their officiating privileges."

As if this arcane concept wasn't confusing enough, paragraph A adds to the confusion for basketball officials: "Within the guidelines of each individual sport rule code, the head coach must request a review of an official's application of a rule through the appropriate channels."

I see 5-4-2 states "The NFHS Basketball Rules Committee does not recognize protests." I suppose this means in basketball, this procedure would not apply.

Basketball is the only sport I officiate...but what about you multi-sport folks out there? Do other rules allow for a protest by the coach in the middle of a game?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by CoachP

With that process , I don't. They ran off the court. But if I chase them, then M&M will hit me with 10-4-1(b)

You might be able to catch M&M before he gets out of the visual whatevers, but no one else I know of will take that long getting off the court.

[ChrisSportsFan]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

You might be able to catch M&M before he gets out of the visual whatevers, but no one else I know of will take that long getting off the court.

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