Coach drags out the rule book

[icallfouls]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I would NEVER welcome a coach "pulling out the rule book" whether during the game or just after it ends.

I'd be much more likley to listen to a coach who ASKS, "Can we check the rule book?" or (even better) "Can you check with your partners?"

Originally Posted by CoachP

As not to hijack Fiascos thread about emailing or calling a coach, Here’s a new thread.



First of all, the Dean Smith/Bobby Knight comparison is apples and oranges. Not the “same theory”. Those are books chock full of opinions and strategies based on their experiences, not on rules. For example, there is not a rule that says I have to call a timeout when the opponent goes on a 10-0 run, nor do I have to switch on all screens. The rule book, however, is different. The officials’ job is to make sure a contest is finished where both teams play within a written set of rules.

Secondly, because of what I have learned here, I would never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never drag out a rule book during the course of a game. Nor would I promote it to other coaches. In fact, as an 8th year varsity coach, there is probably only one time where the thought even crossed my mind. (“Coach, the ball went in and we counted the basket, therefore it cannot be an intentional foul”)

Thirdly, the sitch I questioned:

Varsity level.
Team A down by one point. I am Coach A.
A1 hits jumper, end of game buzzer sounds as ball is passing thru basket as referee is blowing whistle for a foul on A2.
Ref waives off basket as explained in Fiasco's OP.

In this case, probably at the scorers table, there will be 2 coaches and 2-3 referees. If the referees confer that the basket is not counted, I WILL bring out my rule book. No fanfare, no stomping and snorting, just a simple rule discussion. I will not take it to the local watering hole. If the referees refuse to look at it or take offense, then the AD will be making a phone call.

Which would you prefer? A call from your assignor telling you that you kicked it -or- fix it before you leave?

Again, before I get flamed, my position is for THIS EXACT SITCH ONLY.

Tell me I'm wrong and defend it and I will take it like a man and learn.

I think this is a great situation. Now add to it that the winner of the game is going to the state semi-final game. It determines which officials are going to work the final the next night.

This is definitely going to decide the future of the crew.

Who is going to have the guts to say it is more important to get the play right?

IIRC, there was a play in the NBA or NCAA where an official went to the television monitor to get a play right. The officials might have gotten in trouble for using the monitor, but no one complained that they got it right. It brought replay to the game and it has helped.

In my opinion, all the assignors, state associations, teams etc. want is for rules to be correctly inforced. Would you rather be known as the official that got it right, or the guy who screwed up a rule and the game. Not sure what I would do, but if it prevented me from blowing the game, it could very well be worth it. Bringing out the rulebook is going to be a problem, but if something like what Bob suggested happened....

[biz]

The high school league that I coach in allows protests to occur. The only league rules are that the protest must be made at or as close to the time of the (believed) infraction, and that you cannot protest a judgement call.

The protest is heard by the league athletic directors and the league commissioner at a special meeting. Our league rule superceeds the NF rule which doesn't allow protests. This is similar to our (MA) use of the shot clock although NF rules don't provide for one.

[Nevadaref]

during a game that I am working, I'll happily point him to the rule which proves that he is wrong.

A good official who knows the rules shouldn't feel threatened by a coach with a rules book.

Of course, a coach would never be seen in public with a rules book!

[Back In The Saddle]

I think the irony in this whole discussion is that, generally speaking, an official who is familiar enough with the rules to be able to quickly find the correct rule when presented with a rule book "in the heat of battle" is not likely to be the same official who kicked the rule to begin with.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by SWMOzebra

Basketball is the only sport I officiate...but what about you multi-sport folks out there? Do other rules allow for a protest by the coach in the middle of a game?

Volleyball allows for it. A head coach may request a timeout, consult with the first referee, and if the disputed decision is changed, the timeout is charged instead to the referee. The window of opportunity is very short, and the mandated protocol makes it very unlikely that a rule book would be present to consult. Judgment calls are not subject to review. But I have never personally seen it happen.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

...generally speaking, an official who is familiar enough with the rules to be able to quickly find the correct rule when presented with a rule book "in the heat of battle" is not likely to be the same official who kicked the rule to begin with.

Very true.

[JRutledge]

It has nothing to do with finding the rule. It is that this action in inappropriate. Just like it is inappropriate for officials to say certain things to coaches, it is inappropriate for a coach (or official) to bring out a rulebook. If you know the rules, you do not need a rulebook to prove you right or find the rule. Actually if many coaches want to, I can quote the rule (which I do not recommend either) on the fly. If it is inappropirate for me to tell a coach to sit down and shut up, then it is inappropriate for a coach to bring a rulebook to a discussion. Also, many of the situations in basketball have nothing to do with the rulebook. Often these are judgment decisions that a rulebook is not going to solve.

Peace

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

It has nothing to do with finding the rule. It is that this action in inappropriate. ... it is inappropriate for a coach (or official) to bring out a rulebook.

I disagree. There is nothing in and of the act itself of consulting the book that is insulting, degrading, or otherwise inappropriate. It depends upon the manner in which it is done.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If it is inappropirate for me to tell a coach to sit down and shut up, then it is inappropriate for a coach to bring a rulebook to a discussion.

Apples to oranges.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Also, many of the situations in basketball have nothing to do with the rulebook. Often these are judgment decisions that a rulebook is not going to solve.

That is probably true.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I disagree. There is nothing in and of the act itself of consulting the book that is insulting, degrading, or otherwise inappropriate. It depends upon the manner in which it is done.

I did not say it was insulting or deaning. I said it was inapproriate and that is a big difference. And if it was appropriate, you would see people all over the place advocating such an action. The reality other than on this site, you probably would not find anyone of the powers that be advocating such a thing. I bet you will never see this allowed in any college league? I know it is not allowed in my state from any assignor. It is not allowed in any sport I work. It is not appropriate for an official to do the same.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Apples to oranges.

It is the same thing. We all have things that would be considered unprofessional. It is unprofessional for officials to say and do things, the same things apply to a coach. We are held to standards and so are coaches. If a coach wants to complain, go through the proper channels. I have shown coaches that I am friendly with the rules after the game or through email.

And here is another caveat to this discussion, no one I work for would support such an action by a coach. Not at the high school level and certainly not the college ranks.

If you think I kicked a rule, contact the assignor or state administrator(s) and you will know what was right or wrong. If I am wrong, then the powers that be have ways to come to a solution.

But to assume that we are going to hash out things by bringing in a rulebook is silly. People here cannot agree on interpretations and have to find many other references outside the rulebook. You for one are notorious of bring out some interpretation from 1972 and you think because you have a rulebook present that is going to solve all rules problems? And we have not even discussed the casebook yet.

Peace

[Back In The Saddle]

So....what if the coach pulled Nevadaref out of his bag to provide an interp from 1972? Would that be appropriate, or inappropriate?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

So....what if the coach pulled Nevadaref out of his bag to provide an interp from 1972? Would that be appropriate, or inappropriate?

You're confusing Nevada for Chuck. Nevada would never fit in a coach's bag.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

You're confusing Nevada for Chuck. Nevada would never fit in a coach's bag.

[Back In The Saddle]

True dat. However, Chuck, AFAIK, does not provide interps from 1972. You have to go to Nevadaref for those. Or, if he's not around, sometimes you can get MTD to ascend to his attic.

OTOH, I keep a full size Chuck bobblehead figurine in my bag. I pull it out during pregame and the entire crew rubs it's bobbly little head for luck. It works much better than my lucky rocket ship underwear ever did.

[Adam]

Glad I didn't work with you back in the day.

[icallfouls]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I did not say it was insulting or deaning. I said it was inapproriate and that is a big difference. And if it was appropriate, you would see people all over the place advocating such an action. The reality other than on this site, you probably would not find anyone of the powers that be advocating such a thing. I bet you will never see this allowed in any college league? I know it is not allowed in my state from any assignor. It is not allowed in any sport I work. It is not appropriate for an official to do the same.



It is the same thing. We all have things that would be considered unprofessional. It is unprofessional for officials to say and do things, the same things apply to a coach. We are held to standards and so are coaches. If a coach wants to complain, go through the proper channels. I have shown coaches that I am friendly with the rules after the game or through email.

And here is another caveat to this discussion, no one I work for would support such an action by a coach. Not at the high school level and certainly not the college ranks.

If you think I kicked a rule, contact the assignor or state administrator(s) and you will know what was right or wrong. If I am wrong, then the powers that be have ways to come to a solution.

But to assume that we are going to hash out things by bringing in a rulebook is silly. People here cannot agree on interpretations and have to find many other references outside the rulebook. You for one are notorious of bring out some interpretation from 1972 and you think because you have a rulebook present that is going to solve all rules problems? And we have not even discussed the casebook yet.

Peace

Well said