Ramifications for requesting too many timeouts

[JRutledge]

That is all I was saying. You were reading way too much into the comments.

Peace

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Curious, I'm not following your logic.

You saved me some typing.........and agree on your follow up.

[grunewar]

Originally Posted by Coach Bill

The purpose served would be to get my kids to break a sweat. Grunewar - since you're a coach, would you be interested in playing a game where the kids run up and down the court five times, have halftime, run up and down the court 5 times, and then shake hands and go home?

I'm exaggerating a little, but it was like that, with all the subs and free throws.

Coach Bill - I certainly appreciate your predicament and don’t know how I would react in your shoes. I’d sure as heck be frustrated too. I just don’t believe I would use your tactic.

I ref in one rec league with a running clock and ref and coach in another with 5/6/7 min quarters (depending on the age) and I like the running clock better for many reasons.

One of the biggest problems I’ve had as a ref in the leagues is teams not honoring the “you must play a quarter” or “five straight minutes” rule. Refs are specifically instructed not to get involved with these admin rules (other than to warn) as we have other issues to concern ourselves with – we instruct the offended coach to take it up with the league.

As a coach, I would probably let the game run its course, maybe say something to the coach after the game, and take it up with the league…..and hope we don’t play that team later in the yr or repetitively over the yr – as then your season would really be bad if he continues this tactic.

PS – IMO, this pales in comparison to the coach who instructs his team to pick up the full court press and keep it on when their up by 30 points and there is no mercy rule.

Good luck!

[Smitty]

If it's a running clock league like the one I officiate in the fall, the main reason the games use a running clock is to keep the 10 or so games played on the same court on schedule - basically to guarantee that you can start games on the hour. If you decided to call a timeout at every dead ball, you would not only irritate just about everyone involved in your game, but also the dozens of people who have games scheduled behind yours.

[Adam]

I agree with floating the trial balloon to the league before going forward with this. Personally, I don't think the extra playing time you garner would be worth the headache. At most, you'll gain what, 30 seconds of time?

Again, I don't see how this is at all "unethical" or "low road." The rules very specifically cover this, so it's not a 2-3 situation. Pragmatically, it wouldn't make sense, though.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Coach Bill

[/b]

I don't think the other coach is doing anything wrong. Nothing against him. It's just that I asked the league rep if this was a stopped clock league (answer - yes), and we sent in our money, and come to find out, it's a running clock league. And, too late to enter another league. My choices are grin and bear it, ask for my money back and quit, or start racking up team technicals. I'm 99% sure, it's grin and bear it.

Agreed. They've got a running clock so they can get all the games in. You might get away with it once but after that, they're just going to tell the offiicals to ignore the excessive TO requests.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Again, I don't see how this is at all "unethical" or "low road." The rules very specifically cover this, so it's not a 2-3 situation. Pragmatically, it wouldn't make sense, though.

Just because the rules allow or don't prohibit something doesn't necessarily mean it is ethical or acceptable.

In a running clock league like this, I'd roll the clock once this particular timeout ends...even if it didn't normally start. The clock would run during the T FTs...eating up the clock anyway....that's assuming I don't just declare it a travesty and go home.

At the same time, I'd be quite particular about not letting subs in that were "not ready".

Neither of these forms of gamesmanship should not be part of youth sports.

[bob jenkins]

What some of these leagues do (and maybe coach Bill can suggest it to the league) is allow NO subs (other than for injury) except at designaed points -- usually 1/2 way through a quarter. Then, usually, it's 5-out, 5-in. So, everyone gets to play the "required" amount, the playing time isn't drastically reduced, and the games still end (and the next one starts) on time.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Just because the rules allow or don't prohibit something doesn't necessarily mean it is ethical or acceptable.

In a running clock league like this, I'd roll the clock once this particular timeout ends...even if it didn't normally start. The clock would run during the T FTs...eating up the clock anyway....that's assuming I don't just declare it a travesty and go home.

At the same time, I'd be quite particular about not letting subs in that were "not ready".

Neither of these forms of gamesmanship should not be part of youth sports.

And just because it's not standard doesn't mean it's unethical.

That said, I agree. The clock would start "on the ready." In the end, it would cost the kids playing time rather than save it (due to the free throws).

[Coach Bill]

FYI - The league agreed to stop the clock on free throws. This will make it more palatable, and was a compromise since they admit that they told me it was a stopped clock league.

Thanks for the info. I was never gonna start racking up the timeouts/technicals, but it's good to know they get charged to the team.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Coach Bill

FYI - The league agreed to stop the clock on free throws. This will make it more palatable, and was a compromise since they admit that they told me it was a stopped clock league.

Good news, and well done.

[Mark Padgett]

Since I've been on the Board of our local kids rec league for 17 years, I have a lot of experience with both the timing of games and the playing time for the kids. We restrict the number of players on each team to a maximum of 10 and any kid who shows up for both practices during the week must play at least half the game on Saturday. That means that if a team has 10 kids and they all show up for the practices, they will all play half the game on Saturday (or on a weeknight for HS level). Of course, this timing is somewhat approximate, although as close as the clock situation will allow. Our 3rd and 4th grade teams play 8 minute quarters with running clock, 5th and 6th play six minute stop time quarters, 7th and 8th play seven minute stop time quarters and HS plays 20 minute running halves. This is dictated by the amount of time we have to get all the games in. HS games are played on weeknights. We rent the gyms from the School District and they are pretty strict about us not running over the rental times because there are custodians in the schools who stay in the gyms during the games (school district policy to have a school district employee in the gym during games) and they are union employees so the district is very specific about their clock in and out times.

BTW - the referees are not responsible for monitoring the amount of playing time the kids get. Our policy puts the burden on a parent to complain to the Board and then a Board member checks it out. Since I am a referee and a Board member (as are a few others), I sometime get asked to "testify" as to my perception of the playing time of a player if there is a complaint but usually we are not concentrating on keeping track of this. We have enough else to do smacking unruly parents upside the head with frying pans. You should try it sometime. It works pretty well.

[Stat-Man]

Originally Posted by grunewar

One of the biggest problems I’ve had as a ref in the leagues is teams not honoring the “you must play a quarter” or “five straight minutes” rule. Refs are specifically instructed not to get involved with these admin rules (other than to warn) as we have other issues to concern ourselves with – we instruct the offended coach to take it up with the league.

There is a 6th grade coach in our CYO Division who feels the playing time rule (players must appear in at least 2 quarters, but no more than 3 in a regulation game) doesn't apply. The first time we played them, he claimed he couldn't follow it because he only had 8 players. Of course I have an index card showing how it can be done with as little as 7 players.

But this is one of my peeves, too. If the shoe was on the other foot, these same teams would be asking us why we were ignoring the rules. {/soapbox}

[grunewar]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

Since I am a referee and a Board member (as are a few others), I sometime get asked to "testify" as to my perception of the playing time......

Mark - just curious, has it ever really come to this? Testimony? If so what were the results? Did it get ugly? Team forfeit the game? Warning? Bar the coach? Draw and quarter? Inquiring minds want to know? (well, at least me anyhow)

[ChrisSportsFan]

Coach, your game officials are make less than half the money which they would make during the season for a stopped clock game which would usually last about 1 hour 15 minutes including a 10 minute half time and all. These running clock games typically have a stopped clock in the last 2 minutes and sometime the last 2 of both halves and the games still run about 55 minutes. Just something to think of.
You could also tell some of the players who won't play during the season that the game is in another gym so only the 6 or 7 players you want show up. Then there is pleanty of time for everyone.