Ramifications for requesting too many timeouts

[Coach Bill]

We're playing in a fall league, getting ready for the high school season. NFHS rules, except for running clock, which I hate.

I'm not concerned with winning these games. The thing I'm most interested in, is developing these kids, getting them to work on their games.

I've got 10 kids on the bench and with the running clock it seems like the games are over in 5 minutes and none of them have gotten to play much.

This last game was particularly frustrating. The other coach seemed to be "taking advantage" of the running clock. Subbed at every dead ball. My kids barely broke a sweat in either half.

My question is: After I run out of timeouts, what are the ramifications if I call a timeout at every dead ball, in which it is their ball anyway? I know it's a technical, and they get the ball at half-court, but will I be ejected after two of them? Are there any other ramifications? Is there a point where the refs will kick my @ss? I doubt I will have the guts to do this, but I was just curious, after I was thinking what a waste of time that last game was.

[Adam]

Coach, no ramifications other than the technical foul called. It's a team technical, and thus a team foul. Nothing gets assessed to the head coach, however.

That being said, I can't guarantee the refs for your game would know this rule correctly. It's possible, particularly at lower levels, the refs may think it should get assessed to the head coach. If that happens, you could get ejected after two of them.

[grunewar]

Now why would you even think of compounding the problem and adding to the frustration of you and so many others? You're going to prolong the game and not teach the kids right from wrong (although the other coach is doing nothing "technically wrong" by rule) - let it go and take the high ground. Besides, who knows what the refs at this level might do? (nothing against them, just a question as I don't know the level of official).

[JRutledge]

I guess you would have to ask your league what the ultimate ramifications would be. If all you are using is NF rules, then your team would be assessed a T not you personally as a coach. And I guess at some point someone might think you are making a travesty of the game. You are really going to have to discuss this with the people you live around. They would know more about how the league will view this and likely what their officials might do.

Peace

[Adam]

Originally Posted by grunewar

Now why would you even think of compounding the problem and adding to the frustration of you and so many others? You're going to prolong the game and not teach the kids right from wrong (although the other coach is doing nothing "technically wrong" by rule) - let it go and take the high ground. Besides, who knows what the refs at this level might do? (nothing against them, just a question as I don't know the level of official).

Curious, I'm not following your logic.

[grunewar]

Originally Posted by Coach Bill

The thing I'm most interested in, is developing these kids, getting them to work on their games.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Curious, I'm not following your logic.

Snaq's as a coach too, my thought process was - if a coach (adult) constantly did this, what is the lesson he is teaching the kids? Why would a coach do this? What purpose would it serve? As was stated, wouldn't these actions turn the game into farse? The OP specifically says he wants to "develop these kids." I just don't feel these types of coaching actions would be along those lines. JMO

[Adam]

I'm not sure I see the problem. The rules allow for excessive timeouts at the cost of a T. He's not doing anything unethical here.

[Coach Bill]

[/B]

Originally Posted by grunewar

Now why would you even think of compounding the problem and adding to the frustration of you and so many others? "You're going to prolong the game" and not teach the kids right from wrong" (although the other coach is doing nothing "technically wrong" by rule) - let it go and take the high ground. Besides, who knows what the refs at this level might do? (nothing against them, just a question as I don't know the level of official).

I don't think the other coach is doing anything wrong. Nothing against him. It's just that I asked the league rep if this was a stopped clock league (answer - yes), and we sent in our money, and come to find out, it's a running clock league. And, too late to enter another league. My choices are grin and bear it, ask for my money back and quit, or start racking up team technicals. I'm 99% sure, it's grin and bear it.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I'm not sure I see the problem. The rules allow for excessive timeouts at the cost of a T. He's not doing anything unethical here.

Yeah, but he could turn the game into a travesty if he is just trying to be indifferent by continuously calling timeouts when he clearly does not have one. I do not think we should be encouraging that behavior and assume that others might not have a problem with it. And the referee in any game has the right to rule on anything not specifically covered in the rules.

Peace

[Coach Bill]

Originally Posted by grunewar

Snaq's as a coach too, my thought process was - if a coach (adult) constantly did this, what is the lesson he is teaching the kids? Why would a coach do this? What purpose would it serve? As was stated, wouldn't these actions turn the game into farse? The OP specifically says he wants to "develop these kids." I just don't feel these types of coaching actions would be along those lines. JMO

The purpose served would be to get my kids to break a sweat. Grunewar - since you're a coach, would you be interested in playing a game where the kids run up and down the court five times, have halftime, run up and down the court 5 times, and then shake hands and go home?

I'm exaggerating a little, but it was like that, with all the subs and free throws.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Yeah, but he could turn the game into a travesty if he is just trying to be indifferent by continuously calling timeouts when he clearly does not have one. I do not think we should be encouraging that behavior and assume that others might not have a problem with it. And the referee in any game has the right to rule on anything not specifically covered in the rules.

Peace

But this is specifically covered. A team can call time outs in excess of their allotted, at the cost of a team technical foul. The official is required, by rule, to grant it. The referee, by rule, is also allowed to forfeit a game if the coach is making a travesty of it. I'm not sure where any part of this situation isn't covered by specific rules?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

But this is specifically covered. A team can call time outs in excess of their allotted, at the cost of a team technical foul. The official is required, by rule, to grant it. The referee, by rule, is also allowed to forfeit a game if the coach is making a travesty of it. I'm not sure where any part of this situation isn't covered by specific rules?

The rule covers a situation with the expectation that a team makes a mistake and requests an extra timeout. I do not think the rule covers a coach purposely calling a timeout in excess because he is ticked off at the other coach or a rule.

Peace

[Back In The Saddle]

I would agree that the intent of the rulesmakers was not to facilitate this kind of abuse by a coach. However, the rule is pretty clear:

(NFHS 5-12-2) Time-outs in excess of the allotted number may be requested and shall be granted during regulation playing time or any extra period at the expense of a technical foul for each.

Same in college:

(NCAA 5-15-1) Art. 1. Timeouts in excess of the allotted number may be requested and shall be granted at the expense of an administrative technical foul charged to the offending team for each taken and (women) loss of possession of the ball.

I don't see an option to ignore the timeout request for any reason, malicious or otherwise. Shall is a pretty iron-clad rulebook word.

The rules do allow for forfeiting the game if it becomes a travesty.

To me that gives pretty comprehensive rules coverage for this situation. It may not be ideal coverage, but it is comprehensive.

What exactly do you propose the referee rule on that isn't covered?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

I don't see an option to ignore the timeout request for any reason, malicious or otherwise. Shall is a pretty iron-clad rulebook word.

The rules do allow for forfeiting the game if it becomes a travesty.

To me that gives pretty comprehensive rules coverage for this situation. It may not be ideal coverage, but it is comprehensive.

What exactly do you propose the referee rule on that isn't covered?

I did not say the referee would just simply ignore a request. I said that they referee might feel the action is turning the game into a travesty. I do not know about you, but if that comes into play, I usually would warn a coach before I would take such an action. Just like it is illegal FT violation committed over and over to force a team to make FT might be considered making the game a travesty of the game, so could this action. You do not just forfeit a game without some instruction to a coach to before that happens. And it really becomes the case when you realize the coach is just being obstinate.

Peace

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I did not say the referee would just simply ignore a request. I said that they referee might feel the action is turning the game into a travesty. I do not know about you, but if that comes into play, I usually would warn a coach before I would take such an action. Just like it is illegal FT violation committed over and over to force a team to make FT might be considered making the game a travesty of the game, so could this action. You do not just forfeit a game without some instruction to a coach to before that happens. And it really becomes the case when you realize the coach is just being obstinate.

Peace

That I agree with.