Multiple foul?

[Adam]

If coach asks for a multiple foul? Are you serious? Billy, in all your 27 years of not calling this, have you ever had a coach ask why?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

If coach asks for a multiple foul? Are you serious? Billy, in all your 27 years of not calling this, have you ever had a coach ask why?

Of course, I'm not serious, I'm just pushing the envelope.

I am, however, curious. Curious about why at least one member of our Forum has "seen what technically qualifies as a multiple foul several times, even several times in one game", yet these multiple fouls are seldom, if ever, called. I bet there are probably other Forum members who can say the same thing.

If ever questioned by a coach, and, so far, I never have, I would tell the coach that the fouls did not happen at the same time. That's how I rationalize it the few times that I may have seen something that looks like a possible multiple foul and not called it. Why haven't I called it? Probably because I don't want to appear to be an overly officious official.

This past season, I called a "punching the ball" violation, and had to deal with questions from my colleagues about being an overly officious official. I once called a double foul in the first period of a game, and was told, at halftime, by my higher ranked partner to never call such an "odd" foul when working with him again, a point both of us still disagree on. I don't think anybody wants to appear like they're showing off by calling odd fouls and violations. Some say that the best officiated games are the ones where you don't notice the officials. Call a multiple foul, and you will get noticed. I guarantee it.

Anybody else want to offer an opinion as to why these very rare multiple fouls probably do occur, but are seldom, if ever called?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Anybody else want to offer an opinion as to why these very rare multiple fouls probably do occur, but are seldom, if ever called?

My opinion:

1) In the beginning, there was the foul.

2) Then, someone asked "what happens if two players foul each other?" Thus begat the double foul.

3) Referee, being human, occasionally messed up the application of the double foul, applying it when the conditions weren't met. Thus begat the false double foul.

4) To "close the loop", the rules makers added a "false multiple foul" to cover the situation where the person who was fouled gets fouled again (after a period of time, but before the ball becomes live).

5) You can't have a "false double foul" without having a definition of a "multiple foul", so that was also added to the book.

IOW, it's there not to be called (in the normal pace of play), but merely so other parts of the book make some sense.

[JS 20]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Of course, I'm not serious, I'm just pushing the envelope.

I am, however, curious. Curious about why at least one member of our Forum has "seen what technically qualifies as a multiple foul several times, even several times in one game", yet these multiple fouls are seldom, if ever, called. I bet there are probably other Forum members who can say the same thing.

If ever questioned by a coach, and, so far, I never have, I would tell the coach that the fouls did not happen at the same time. That's how I rationalize it the few times that I may have seen something that looks like a possible multiple foul and not called it. Why haven't I called it? Probably because I don't want to appear to be an overly officious official.

This past season, I called a "punching the ball" violation, and had to deal with questions from my colleagues about being an overly officious official. I once called a double foul in the first period of a game, and was told, at halftime, by my higher ranked partner to never call such an "odd" foul when working with him again, a point both of us still disagree on. I don't think anybody wants to appear like they're showing off by calling odd fouls and violations. Some say that the best officiated games are the ones where you don't notice the officials. Call a multiple foul, and you will get noticed. I guarantee it.

Anybody else want to offer an opinion as to why these very rare multiple fouls probably do occur, but are seldom, if ever called?

IMO, they're seldom called b/c the official is unsure how to handle it. I think, and again, just my opinion, that they just swallow the whistle on the second/simultaneous one b/c it's an easy sell to the offensive coach that defender A1's foul knocked the shooter into defender A2 which caused that foul or something along those lines. However, let's say A1's foul is on the arm (very visible to everyone) and A2's foul is w/ the body and the shooter goes to the floor. Then you better bring a better explanation to the coach on why you called one and not both. If I'm the coach and you give me some crap explanation, I'm asking you why the second guy gets a free shot on my shooter just because you called the foul on the first guy only.

[grunewar]

I mostly referee "sub-V" so these situations don't arise much as the refs and/or coaches aren't as "knowledgeable" of the rules as those more experienced at the V level. So, lets say this situation arises in a high-level V game, are there really that many experienced V coaches who are going to argue this or want the call? Argue vehemently or just half-hearted? Argue to be heard or make a point? %? Just curious.

[Scrapper1]

First of all, JS's scenario (B1 fouls A1, A1 then crashes into B2.) is not a multiple foul, just to be clear. It's a false double foul. A multiple foul is when more than one player foul the same opponent (B1 and B2 foul A1 at the same time). Having said that. . .

Originally Posted by grunewar

So, lets say this situation arises in a high-level V game, are there really that many experienced V coaches who are going to argue this or want the call? Argue vehemently or just half-hearted? Argue to be heard or make a point?

I've worked roughly 250 varsity high school games and roughly half that number of college games.

I've never, not even once, had a coach ask for a multiple foul.

[CoachP]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

I've never, not even once, had a coach ask for a multiple foul.

I did......only because the ball was in mid air on a 74 foot pass and I wanted the throw in at half court.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by CoachP

I did......only because the ball was in mid air on a 74 foot pass and I wanted the throw in at half court.

Silly coaches. You should have asked for a double foul.

[JS 20]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

First of all, JS's scenario (B1 fouls A1, A1 then crashes into B2.) is not a multiple foul, just to be clear. It's a false double foul. A multiple foul is when more than one player foul the same opponent (B1 and B2 foul A1 at the same time). Having said that. . .

I've worked roughly 250 varsity high school games and roughly half that number of college games.

I've never, not even once, had a coach ask for a multiple foul.

I was trying not to describe it as a false double, guess I didn't do a very good job lol.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by JS 20

I was trying not to describe it as a false double, guess I didn't do a very good job lol.

How about this: Near the end of the game, A1 is attempting to dribble out the clock. Trying to stop the clock, B1 and B2 both foul A1. That's a multiple foul. A1 would shoot 2 free throws, even if Team A was not yet in the bonus.

Or, near the end of the game, with Team A trailing 55-52, everyone in the gym knows that Team A is going to try to get the ball to A1 (their best shooter) for a 3 to tie. A1 is triple-teamed, but gets the ball and attempts a 3-point try. B1, B2 and B3 all foul A1 at the same time, trying to prevent the try. The try is unsuccessful. A1 will get 6 free throws, to tie or win the game!! Try selling that one.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JS 20

IMO, they're seldom called b/c the official is unsure how to handle it.

I disagree. There are plenty of officials who would know how to handle this, and they'll never call it.

Originally Posted by JS 20

However, let's say A1's foul is on the arm (very visible to everyone) and A2's foul is w/ the body and the shooter goes to the floor. Then you better bring a better explanation to the coach on why you called one and not both.

Every coach understands you're going to, in most cases, pick one. In this case, I'll go with the harsher foul. In the once-in-a-lifetime instance where both players clobber the shooter, I might go with the multiple foul. Just tell the coach that both fouls had to be addressed. I've never seen this, though, and fouls that hard may also warrant the "X."

And yes, in my world, I'd be emailing my assigner that night so he wouldn't get blind-sided.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Of course, I'm not serious, I'm just pushing the envelope.

I am, however, curious. Curious about why at least one member of our Forum has "seen what technically qualifies as a multiple foul several times, even several times in one game", yet these multiple fouls are seldom, if ever, called. I bet there are probably other Forum members who can say the same thing.

Anyone who has reffed more than a few games that says that it hasn't happened in their game either doesn't know the rule or is lying.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

If ever questioned by a coach, and, so far, I never have, I would tell the coach that the fouls did not happen at the same time. That's how I rationalize it the few times that I may have seen something that looks like a possible multiple foul and not called it.

And you'd be wrong since the rule doesn't require the same time...only approximately. And "approximately" would cover the period of time that encompasses the entire act of shooting.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Why haven't I called it? Probably because I don't want to appear to be an overly officious official.

That's a good reason. Another is that two fouls did not give any more advantage ot the defense than one alone.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

....

Anybody else want to offer an opinion as to why these very rare multiple fouls probably do occur, but are seldom, if ever called?