Multiple foul?

[JS 20]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Of course, I'm not serious, I'm just pushing the envelope.

I am, however, curious. Curious about why at least one member of our Forum has "seen what technically qualifies as a multiple foul several times, even several times in one game", yet these multiple fouls are seldom, if ever, called. I bet there are probably other Forum members who can say the same thing.

If ever questioned by a coach, and, so far, I never have, I would tell the coach that the fouls did not happen at the same time. That's how I rationalize it the few times that I may have seen something that looks like a possible multiple foul and not called it. Why haven't I called it? Probably because I don't want to appear to be an overly officious official.

This past season, I called a "punching the ball" violation, and had to deal with questions from my colleagues about being an overly officious official. I once called a double foul in the first period of a game, and was told, at halftime, by my higher ranked partner to never call such an "odd" foul when working with him again, a point both of us still disagree on. I don't think anybody wants to appear like they're showing off by calling odd fouls and violations. Some say that the best officiated games are the ones where you don't notice the officials. Call a multiple foul, and you will get noticed. I guarantee it.

Anybody else want to offer an opinion as to why these very rare multiple fouls probably do occur, but are seldom, if ever called?

IMO, they're seldom called b/c the official is unsure how to handle it. I think, and again, just my opinion, that they just swallow the whistle on the second/simultaneous one b/c it's an easy sell to the offensive coach that defender A1's foul knocked the shooter into defender A2 which caused that foul or something along those lines. However, let's say A1's foul is on the arm (very visible to everyone) and A2's foul is w/ the body and the shooter goes to the floor. Then you better bring a better explanation to the coach on why you called one and not both. If I'm the coach and you give me some crap explanation, I'm asking you why the second guy gets a free shot on my shooter just because you called the foul on the first guy only.

[grunewar]

I mostly referee "sub-V" so these situations don't arise much as the refs and/or coaches aren't as "knowledgeable" of the rules as those more experienced at the V level. So, lets say this situation arises in a high-level V game, are there really that many experienced V coaches who are going to argue this or want the call? Argue vehemently or just half-hearted? Argue to be heard or make a point? %? Just curious.

[Scrapper1]

First of all, JS's scenario (B1 fouls A1, A1 then crashes into B2.) is not a multiple foul, just to be clear. It's a false double foul. A multiple foul is when more than one player foul the same opponent (B1 and B2 foul A1 at the same time). Having said that. . .

Originally Posted by grunewar

So, lets say this situation arises in a high-level V game, are there really that many experienced V coaches who are going to argue this or want the call? Argue vehemently or just half-hearted? Argue to be heard or make a point?

I've worked roughly 250 varsity high school games and roughly half that number of college games.

I've never, not even once, had a coach ask for a multiple foul.

[CoachP]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

I've never, not even once, had a coach ask for a multiple foul.

I did......only because the ball was in mid air on a 74 foot pass and I wanted the throw in at half court.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by CoachP

I did......only because the ball was in mid air on a 74 foot pass and I wanted the throw in at half court.

Silly coaches. You should have asked for a double foul.

[JS 20]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

First of all, JS's scenario (B1 fouls A1, A1 then crashes into B2.) is not a multiple foul, just to be clear. It's a false double foul. A multiple foul is when more than one player foul the same opponent (B1 and B2 foul A1 at the same time). Having said that. . .

I've worked roughly 250 varsity high school games and roughly half that number of college games.

I've never, not even once, had a coach ask for a multiple foul.

I was trying not to describe it as a false double, guess I didn't do a very good job lol.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by JS 20

I was trying not to describe it as a false double, guess I didn't do a very good job lol.

How about this: Near the end of the game, A1 is attempting to dribble out the clock. Trying to stop the clock, B1 and B2 both foul A1. That's a multiple foul. A1 would shoot 2 free throws, even if Team A was not yet in the bonus.

Or, near the end of the game, with Team A trailing 55-52, everyone in the gym knows that Team A is going to try to get the ball to A1 (their best shooter) for a 3 to tie. A1 is triple-teamed, but gets the ball and attempts a 3-point try. B1, B2 and B3 all foul A1 at the same time, trying to prevent the try. The try is unsuccessful. A1 will get 6 free throws, to tie or win the game!! Try selling that one.

Talk about a tough sell...

Depending on the level of play, be prepared for Team A to shoot 8 FTs (lane cleared) as Team Bs coach will most likely have to be stuck for coming unglued as he might not be able to relate to the rule.

[JS 20]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

How about this: Near the end of the game, A1 is attempting to dribble out the clock. Trying to stop the clock, B1 and B2 both foul A1. That's a multiple foul. A1 would shoot 2 free throws, even if Team A was not yet in the bonus.

Or, near the end of the game, with Team A trailing 55-52, everyone in the gym knows that Team A is going to try to get the ball to A1 (their best shooter) for a 3 to tie. A1 is triple-teamed, but gets the ball and attempts a 3-point try. B1, B2 and B3 all foul A1 at the same time, trying to prevent the try. The try is unsuccessful. A1 will get 6 free throws, to tie or win the game!! Try selling that one.

Wow, I don't know which of those would be worse to sell.

In that second scenario, unless the shooter hits the floor, B1 is holding a severed arm, B2 is holding a severed arm and B3 is holding a severed leg (or any combo thereof), NO THANKS!!!

[BayStateRef]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Or, near the end of the game, with Team A trailing 55-52, everyone in the gym knows that Team A is going to try to get the ball to A1 (their best shooter) for a 3 to tie. A1 is triple-teamed, but gets the ball and attempts a 3-point try. B1, B2 and B3 all foul A1 at the same time, trying to prevent the try. The try is unsuccessful. A1 will get 6 free throws, to tie or win the game!! Try selling that one.

I had this play in a Rec game (8th grade boys) in my first year officiating. Team A was down by 3 points at the end of the game. Its best shooter attempts a 3-point shot as the clock runs out and two defenders foul him at the same time. I called only one foul, the kid missed one of the foul shots and the game ended.

Since it was my first year, I was not certain of the penalty for the multiple foul. Now that I know it, I would probably call the multiple foul. I say "probably" because I have discussed this play with many officials and I am still looking for one to say the "right" call is the multiple foul. They all tell me that no matter what the rule says ("approximately the same time"), I should pick only one player for the foul.

As for why it is not called on more conventional shots (when two defenders foul someone under the basket, for example), I think it is because the penalty is two shots total (one for each foul.) While the rule book call does increase the foul count for the team and both players, only the multiple foul on a 3-point try actually can give a team the chance for any "extra" points for the proper call.

[Back In The Saddle]

The reason is rule 11-1: Don't be a plumber.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JS 20

IMO, they're seldom called b/c the official is unsure how to handle it.

I disagree. There are plenty of officials who would know how to handle this, and they'll never call it.

Originally Posted by JS 20

However, let's say A1's foul is on the arm (very visible to everyone) and A2's foul is w/ the body and the shooter goes to the floor. Then you better bring a better explanation to the coach on why you called one and not both.

Every coach understands you're going to, in most cases, pick one. In this case, I'll go with the harsher foul. In the once-in-a-lifetime instance where both players clobber the shooter, I might go with the multiple foul. Just tell the coach that both fouls had to be addressed. I've never seen this, though, and fouls that hard may also warrant the "X."

And yes, in my world, I'd be emailing my assigner that night so he wouldn't get blind-sided.