what does a ref think when a player argues or talks?

[mkacala45]

say i argue a call u made on a foul i "commited", does this effect how you call on me the rerst of the game?

what about when i player "commits" a foul and while the other team is on the line before the throws he asks what he did?

do u have any objections or thoughts to asking what you did, like just to find out what not to do next time, not arguing?

[rockyroad]

I personally have no problems with a player who wants to have a call explained or wants to discuss a call - as long as that player is as respectful to me as I am to him/her...also, as a player you need to realize that I don't have a lot of time to just stand and talk, and I certainly am not going to respond pleasantly to someone who is not pleasant to me...as far as a "grudge" or "getting even" - doesn't happen with me...if I need to T you, I will, and then the game goes on...

[zebraman]

Regardless of how a player behaves, I do not ref any differently towards him/her. That being said, you may receive a technical foul from me if you are "arguing." Generally, I will listen to a player who politely and sincerely asks me about a call if there is sufficient time to do so during a dead ball. Once I give my explanation, I don't tolerate any further discussion because it will get us nowhere. If a player starts making a habit of questioning calls, then they lose credibility and I quit listenind and/or give a "T" depending on the player's actions and words. Some referees will only listen to the team captain and that is within their right to ignore all other players.

The best course of action for you to take is to just concentrate on playing and ignore the things (calls) that are out of your control. Energy that you are giving to missed calls is wasted energy that could have been used in the game

Z

[Cornellref]

While most refs will not admit it, they tend to make more unfavorable calls (for your team) if you are constantly arguing. Obviously, we try to be unbiased but this does not always work if certain players are getting on our nerves. Your best bet is to never question the call, but if you have to say something, ask "what did I do wrong?" and say OK no matter what the explanation is. MAIN POINT: Getting on the good side of officials is always better than getting on their bad side. All officials work better and can concentrate more if they are not subjected to constant questioning.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally posted by Cornellref
While most refs will not admit it, they tend to make more unfavorable calls (for your team) if you are constantly arguing.

Says who? I see by your profile you are a student, which probably means you haven't been officiating for a long time. Do you have research to back up your statement?

If "most refs" unfairly make calls against players that argue and against their teammates, then "most refs" still wouldn't be reffing after all these years.

I find your statement irresponsible and unsubstantiated. If a player constantly argues, he will be told by me to knock it off, and possibly get a T, but certainly, I do not start making biased calls against his team because of it. How unprofessional do you think the rest of us are?

If you really want to be an accepted member of the official's community, don't perpetuate myths that denigrate our profession.

[ChuckElias]

I don't want to make overgeneralizations, so I'll just tell a couple of stories from my own experience. I think that human nature is human nature and some people just can't stay unaffected by the constant questioning from players or coaches. Even when the questions are not worthy of a technical foul, after a while they start to get under your skin.

In my first couple of years, I was terrible at dealing with players and coaches. Terrible. I had a 13U boys game in which one player would question me every trip down the floor. "Ref, he got hit", "Ref, he's holding me". You know the kinds of comments I'm talking about. Nothing profane, but the cumulative effect was making me start to boil. Finally, I had enough. But I didn't know what to do or say, so I said "Hey. Just shut up and play!" Looking back, that was a terrible way to handle the situation. By some stroke of luck, it happened to work and the kid did shut up and just played. But I would be lying if I said that his comments did not affect how I treated him. I don't think I ever altered any of my calls b/c of him, but through my comment I treated him badly.

Second example was in another rec league, this one I think was 11U boys. The situation was similar to my case above. But when this official had enough, his comment was "How many calls you think you're gonna get, if you keep talking to me?" I think the player got under his skin and he was telling the kid to shut up, or he wouldn't get any of the "close calls". Now, whether he really would've called the game that way, I don't know. But I think it was a good message to send the kid, although I don't like the way he said it.

All that is to say that I think it would be less than honest to assert that officials never allow the comments to affect them. Does it change the way they call the games? Hopefully not, but I don't think I can be quite as adamant as Mark P.

Chuck

[mick]

Originally posted by mkacala45
say i argue a call u made on a foul i "commited", does this effect how you call on me the rerst of the game?

what about when i player "commits" a foul and while the other team is on the line before the throws he asks what he did?

do u have any objections or thoughts to asking what you did, like just to find out what not to do next time, not arguing?

mka,
There is a big difference between arguing and questioning.
We officials understand that emotion is high during a game and we will allow some excited questioning.
Make your statements in the form of questions or mild statements and you'll be on the safe side of staying in the game. (Instead of saying, "I never touched him!", ask, "What did I do?"; instead of saying, "You gotta call that!", say, "I thought I got hit." )
Generally, we aren't going to look for a player because we are actually looking to see the space between two different colored jerseys. If there is no space, then we look for who caused what. And while we are looking at the space between the players, we cannot be checking numbers.
It ain't nuthin' personal most of the time; although, your mileage may vary from time to time.
Act like a gentle person and get treated like one.
mick

[rcwilco]

I have no problem with a player asking me how he fouled or what he did if he is polite and serious about it. I will give a short answer, such as "Yes your body was straight but you lowered your arms" or "The travel is just before you curl each time". End of comments and no more discussion, as anything else does not show that they really wanted to know. Many times a player will say thanks and move on.

A player constantly harping on me will get a T and I will listen for his mouth but I do not change my calls. Coaches, players, mouthing off, sportsmanship, etc. are game control issues and seperate from fouls and violations.

[devdog69]

Originally posted by rcwilco
I have no problem with a player asking me how he fouled or what he did if he is polite and serious about it. I will give a short answer, such as "Yes your body was straight but you lowered your arms" or "The travel is just before you curl each time". End of comments and no more discussion, as anything else does not show that they really wanted to know. Many times a player will say thanks and move on.

A player constantly harping on me will get a T and I will listen for his mouth but I do not change my calls. Coaches, players, mouthing off, sportsmanship, etc. are game control issues and seperate from fouls and violations.

Well put.

[Cornellref]

Mark: I agree that good refs such as yourself and others that are experienced are good at making perfectly unbiased calls. However, after playing in hundreds of officiated games (middle school and HS) and working well over 100 games myself, I often see this occur. I'm not trying to knock all officials, but in general, arguing hurts your chances at getting breaks. I am young so my view may be off, but I think what happens is a subconscious mechanism. No official I know would do it on purpose (as you state). This is just my opinion, so you can relax man.
Slim

[JRutledge]

The only way it might affect what I do for the rest of the game, is that when you start complaining, I probably will be paying more attention to what you are doing. Then whatever I see, I will call. So that means if you are complaining about your opponent pushing, and in the process I see you pushing, I know what to call.

When you complain you draw undue attention to yourself. Because maybe your complaint is ligitimate, but I watch to see for myself. And if you are the one causing the contact or causing the problem, you just gave me better understanding of why you were complaining, you are trying to get away with something.

My best advice, keep your mouth shut and I will find the "problem" by myself. All you do by complaining is help me.

Peace

[Oz Referee]

The first thing that I got taught when starting to play basketball was that the referee is always right - no exception!

Having said that, I personally have no problem with players asking questions - so long as the way they ask them, and when they are asked is appropriate.

Players that are constantly whinging will probably find that any 50/50 call will go against them - this is not a conscious decision by the referee, it is a natural reaction.

On the other side of the coin, sometimes frequent comments/questions can get a call in your favor - it can occassionally highlight something that the referees may not have noticed (they guys camping in the lane, the ball handler pushing off, the centre that blocks shots with his off arm pushing the shooter). But it is a fine line between highlighting and whinging.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally posted by Cornellref
Mark: I agree that good refs such as yourself and others that are experienced are good at making perfectly unbiased calls. However, after playing in hundreds of officiated games (middle school and HS) and working well over 100 games myself, I often see this occur. I'm not trying to knock all officials, but in general, arguing hurts your chances at getting breaks. I am young so my view may be off, but I think what happens is a subconscious mechanism. No official I know would do it on purpose (as you state). This is just my opinion, so you can relax man.
Slim

Maybe your perception is because you feel you got calls going against you because you argued when you played? (note winky face)

I think its fair to say that some less experienced, more emotional officials may do this, but the majority of officials deal with an arguing player early, then forget about it.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating. If one is officiating in this manner, one won't be around long.

BTW - around Portland, players who argue are said to have "Rasheed-itis".

[Hawks Coach]

In my experience, the more seasoned and better (the two are not always equal!) refs tend to referee with a confidence that shows the minute they step onto the court. They speak with authority whenever they addrress a player or coach. They carry themselves in a manner that lets you know they are in charge.

When things get heated, these officials maintain a neutral composure which allows them to make a strong statement toward a player or coach, yet not to personalize that statement. If they issue a T, they do that with the same mannerism that they call travelling. They have the experience and confidence in that experience to observe and address a situation and not get dragged into a personal confrontation with a person whose intent is precisely to have that sort of confrontation. The key is to remain emotionally detached (to all extents possible) from an emotional situation. It is definitely a practiced skill.

[DrakeM]

If a player who committed a foul wants a brief explanation,
no problem. If a player who was not involved in the play starts griping, NOW we have a problem. When this happens, I usually ask the player, "were you in the play?" Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.
As far as holding a grudge for the rest of the game?
If you're a total thug, you might find yourself out rather quickly. For game management and control purposes of course.