Poll: What do you have?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

When you lift one foot, then return it to the floor, then lift the other foot, then return it to the floor, all while holding the ball firmly in both hands, it doesn't matter which foot was the pivot.

The point was that you can't tell from the video whether the ball was being fumbled because the player's back was to the camera. If it was being fumbled, there was no pivot foot and therefore no travel.

The point made was completely legitimate. It is also not germane to this stoopid poll anyway.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

The point made was completely legitimate. It is also not germane to this stoopid poll anyway.

Now I want to know how you voted!

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Now I want to know how you voted!

He didn't. You can see everybody's vote by clicking one of the numbers in the results.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

He didn't. You can see everybody's vote by clicking one of the numbers in the results.

I think we've all figured out JR enough to know that he didn't vote. Even though I don't expect him to, I had to egg him on a bit to vote.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Now I want to know how you voted!

I agreed with Scrappy's take way back in the other thread....oh, about 4/5 days ago. After that----> paralysis through analysis.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

The point was that you can't tell from the video whether the ball was being fumbled because the player's back was to the camera.

No, the point was that the travel I describe is after the dribble, as the player turns toward the camera. When he picks up his dribble, he is right on the edge of the lane. When he puts up the shot, he is close to the center of the lane. Hard to blame the guy for working on this move. You see it on tv all the time with no whistle.

[JRutledge]

It is really telling that you have to describe the play, instead of it jumping out at everyone to where they know which play you are talking about. And it is telling that you talk about what happens on TV rather than describe what actually was illegal about the play.

Peace

[Adam]

Well, it jumped out at me, Rut; and I have yet to see someone state why it's not an obvious (rather than a technical) travel. Lead couldn't see it due to bodies, probably, but it's a perfect example of a call trail should have in the paint.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Well, it jumped out at me, Rut; and I have yet to see someone state why it's not an obvious (rather than a technical) travel. Lead couldn't see it due to bodies, probably, but it's a perfect example of a call trail should have in the paint.

I said it was technical at best. And if you have to run the tape over and over again to justify a call, then it is a good no call (like the officials on this game decided not to call anything) to me. And if I am the trail and I am not sure, I do not come in making a call in front of another official that saw the entire play.

Peace

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I said it was technical at best. And if you have to run the tape over and over again to justify a call, then it is a good no call (like the officials on this game decided not to call anything) to me. And if I am the trail and I am not sure, I do not come in making a call in front of another official that saw the entire play.

Peace

As Snaq points out, the lead had reason not to see the entire play. But from the video, which is the perspective of the trail, the travel is certainly easy enough to see to make a call. I'm still a bit vague about the term "technical travel," but this play does not involve foot movement in inches, and there is no jump stop. Perhaps there are other examples.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by just another ref

As Snaq points out, the lead had reason not to see the entire play. But from the video, which is the perspective of the trail, the travel is certainly easy enough to see to make a call. I'm still a bit vague about the term "technical travel," but this play does not involve foot movement in inches, and there is no jump stop. Perhaps there are other examples.

Considering that the video is from the stands on the other side of the court, I hardly look at that as from the Trail's point of view. And if people think the video is grainy on a closer angle, not sure how the video gets clearer further away from the camera. Oh well.

Peace

[Mwanr1]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I know this is going to be hard for you to understand. The officials passed on the play for a reason. I know you think you are the best official alive and you can see things that officials on the game cannot see, because you can slow down the tape and watch it over and over again. :

Peace

Now how do you know the lead passed on the traveling for a reason? Is there a possibility that he missed the traveling because he's too close to the play? When working the 2 person game, the T should normally work wider and deeper to get a better angle of the play (depending on the location of the ball and players). For 3 person, the Lead are trained to officiate upper body, waist to shoulders, and let the Trail assist you with the feet (traveling).

Judging from the lead's position from the start of this play, I can guess that these two officals are not very experienced. First, the lead was working too close to the "closeline" spot when the ball is outside of the 3pt line. I would probably have my outside shoulder, the left shoulder, align with the ball so I can officiate both the ball and while using my peripheral on the second competitive matchup (post up players). When the post player receives the ball and makes a move towards the basketball, he's moving with the players in a straight line as opposed to moving away from them to get create an angle to officiate the shot.

As for the Trail (new lead) , any experience official would probably stop at about the top of the key to somewhere around the ft line extended get an angle to see between the dribbler and defender. He obviously didn't know when to stop and was straightline. So is it that they are passing on the fouls/violation, or is it that they don't have enough experience and skills like Rut to call the play???

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Mwanr1

Now how do you know the lead passed on the traveling for a reason? Is there a possibility that he missed the traveling because he's too close to the play? When working the 2 person game, the T should normally work wider and deeper to get a better angle of the play (depending on the location of the ball and players). For 3 person, the Lead are trained to officiate upper body, waist to shoulders, and let the Trail assist you with the feet (traveling).

I realize that it is hard for you to understand. But when people make calls or do not make calls, there is a reason. The reason might be as simple as they did not see the play. Or the reason could be they saw the entire play and did not think it was a violation. Or they may say I missed the play and should have called a violation. That is why the common question I ask when working a camp is, “What did you see?” Their answer tells me why they decided to make a call or not make a call.

Originally Posted by Mwanr1

When working the 2 person game, the T should normally work wider and deeper to get a better angle of the play (depending on the location of the ball and players). For 3 person, the Lead are trained to officiate upper body, waist to shoulders, and let the Trail assist you with the feet (traveling).

I have no idea what is expected in your area, but where I am from we do not teach the Trail to be looking at a play on the other side of the lane away from the trail (that is not in the trouble area of course). And we do not teach the "upper body, lower body" mechanic either. You call what is in your primary, not just a part of the body. That is not even taught at the college level or at the camps I have attended in the last several years.

Originally Posted by Mwanr1

Judging from the lead's position from the start of this play, I can guess that these two officals are not very experienced. First, the lead was working too close to the "closeline" spot when the ball is outside of the 3pt line. I would probably have my outside shoulder, the left shoulder, align with the ball so I can officiate both the ball and while using my peripheral on the second competitive matchup (post up players). When the post player receives the ball and makes a move towards the basketball, he's moving with the players in a straight line as opposed to moving away from them to get create an angle to officiate the shot.

I do not necessarily agree with that statement either. Then again we all have differences in what we see as important.

Originally Posted by Mwanr1

As for the Trail (new lead) , any experience official would probably stop at about the top of the key to somewhere around the ft line extended get an angle to see between the dribbler and defender. He obviously didn't know when to stop and was straightline. So is it that they are passing on the fouls/violation, or is it that they don't have enough experience and skills like Rut to call the play???

You are making these absolutes based on one play. Two person is not even something many experienced officials I even see work. So to suggest that any experienced official would be working one way on a play deep in the Lead's primary is a stretch. But then again, what do I know. I actually am in a position to teach mechanics in my state and run clinics. So I guess I should just throw out all I know and have been told to focus on, and take you position. It sounds like you cannot understand why I feel differently than you, and try to justify it by talking about what the mechanics of the officials were. I keep saying this was one call in one game. I think I would need to view more of the game to judge someone's experience level. I do not even know what offense or defenses are being run. But then again, you are the expert.

Peace