What do you have???

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by Cajun Reff

and with the two man crew green's coach only gets to argue the block for a little while

My personal rule is that if he goes beyond half a syllable, it's a T.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Stepping backward in this case means directly away from the offensive player, does it not? If so, if the defender had established LGP, no way can stepping backward result in a blocking foul.

I agree with that. Ignore my earlier comment. I misunderstood what was being asked. I pictured a defender stepping backwards into the landing area of an airborne player who was trying to avoid him.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by mu4scott

How can you honestly say there was no contact? You can debate the severity, but to say there is none is absurd.

I did not say there was or there was not contact. You are the main one talking about what did take place, not me. I told you (if you can read) that the video is very blurry and inconclusive to see much of anything. And just having contact does not mean there is a foul like someone else pointed out to you in the rules. But hey, you are the expert right?

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

I understand your comment about the defender falling as he did. Now what about the offensive player falling as he did? He can't magically check his hips out like that without some opposing force pushing on them. visual cues can aid you greatly in accuracy in play calling and this is one of those visual cues.

I cannot speak for you, but players do fall while trying to do things they cannot do. It happens all the time. That very thing happened in the last regular season game I had. I was the lead and a big time star was driving to the basket and he fell. I did not have a great angle and I did not guess. Both my partners had a much better look at the play from their point of view. They passed on the play because they saw him fall, but all indications looked like their might have been some contact. There was contact, but the dribbler (big time star mind you) fell to the floor and lost the ball. Now if I used your logic and assumed there was something illegal, at least according to my two partners I would have been wrong to just call a foul. This is a play I would like to hear what the official had to say, rather than just looking at a video. And as a clinician in many camps this summer, I would ask the officials on the floor, "What did you see?" Often their answer told me more about what I thought I saw than what really happened.

Originally Posted by btaylor64

secondly I would like to ask the question why are you still talking about the defender and how he landed? i like that you used another visual cue here and it does look like he flops a little, but the defender is no longer our sole problem once the kid is airborne. we have to first determine if the defender is legal or illegal. In this case I would say most ppl have said he was illegal and with that being the case we now have to see if his illegal movement or positioning and subsequent contact, whether it be slight or not, hindered the offensive player from completing a natural basketball play or movement? If you take that criterion and still say no to it then fine I'm ok with that, but I believe you would be wrong in just saying that it was minimal contact and on that basis alone you don't have a foul for that reason, solely.

I will give you a perfect answer. If the defender fell as if no one touched him (or a flop), then it is hard to come to the conclusion there was much contact. And the fact that we are only looking at someone's back (the shooter), and then I can come to some other conclusion that there was contact. Also the way the player fell was suggestive to me as if they missed the defender for the most part and fell as a result of being out of control and not because of contact.

Originally Posted by btaylor64

I would like to say this is my opinion, but under the assumption that the said player is illegal then he is what he is, illegal! Therefore, barring any overt move by the offensive player, the onus is on the defender to be legal and any subsequent contact hindering a player from completing a natural, athletic basketball move or play should be deemed a foul.

If you have not noticed, I am giving my "opinion" too. I never said this was what actually took place. I said that this is what it looked like to me. Now if you disagree that is fine. But when I was at camps all summer, people disagreed left and right about plays that happen. So we are just going to have to agree to disagree, because nothing you have said changes my mind.

Originally Posted by btaylor64

sidenote: if this offensive player lands straight on his feet or iow completing his move and in my judgement he was not hindered by this contact, then I would no call this play. At the same time if he lands on his feet and i feel he was unable to complete his move I would still have a whistle.

Gotta love this job! Not always so black and white!

Well I guess all players that attempt to jump in the air are always under control. Once again, I would like to be in position to make a call and not guessing by a blurry video. Maybe that is just me.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Mwanr1

Rut: you should get a new video card and a monitor... if there's no contact, then the shooter must have some crazy special skills to fall sideways like he did in the video.

You need to get a better video card. He fell flat on his front, not on his side. And if someone falls on their front part of their body and they just made contact with a person right in front of them, why did he not fall on the defender? Inquiring minds want to know?

Peace

[observer]

see nothing
some incidential contac

[mu4scott]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I did not say there was or there was not contact. You are the main one talking about what did take place, not me. I told you (if you can read) that the video is very blurry and inconclusive to see much of anything. And just having contact does not mean there is a foul like someone else pointed out to you in the rules. But hey, you are the expert right?

Peace

"It is not clear there was much or any contact." - JRut..

(Enough said, I'm done debating this issue w/ you)

"He fell flat on his front, not on his side. And if someone falls on their front part of their body and they just made contact with a person right in front of them, why did he not fall on the defender? Inquiring minds want to know?" -JRut

(For a blurry video you sure saw his body positioning awfully clear. The defender bailed out/flopped thus the offensive player could not land on him).

As I stated earlier in the thread this has been a great play for discussing other officials views and how others might see the same play. For some reason you seem to be threatened (thus insulting myself and others) when others don't see things your way. I spent time breaking down this video and trying to explain what I saw. Most on here agree after seeing it frame-by-frame that the contact warranted a foul.

As I've told you before not everyone on this forum is an elite official. I guess it makes you feel better to come on here and belittle the less experienced (yes I can read). Have a nice evening JRut.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by mu4scott

"It is not clear there was much or any contact." - JRut..

(Enough said, I'm done debating this issue w/ you)

"He fell flat on his front, not on his side. And if someone falls on their front part of their body and they just made contact with a person right in front of them, why did he not fall on the defender? Inquiring minds want to know?" -JRut

(For a blurry video you sure saw his body positioning awfully clear. The defender bailed out/flopped thus the offensive player could not land on him).

As I stated earlier in the thread this has been a great play for discussing other officials views and how others might see the same play. For some reason you seem to be threatened (thus insulting myself and others) when others don't see things your way. I spent time breaking down this video and trying to explain what I saw. Most on here agree after seeing it frame-by-frame that the contact warranted a foul.

As I've told you before not everyone on this forum is an elite official. I guess it makes you feel better to come on here and belittle the less experienced (yes I can read). Have a nice evening JRut.

If you are so worried about being belittled, then stop acting like everyone has to see what you see. For one it is clear to me you either do you have the experience of seeing this kind of play or you would accept that veterans have a take not only based on the tape, but their extensive experience. And the blurry part of the video and the angle I would not bet a game check there was contact or that the contact was significant or illegal. I have seen that play several times where no contact or little contact occurred and the shooter falls hard to the floor. If you do not want to buy that, then why do you still debate with me (and others) what we saw? You obviously know more than us. Remember I am not coming here to learn from you, I can see for myself and that is why I go to camps every year and several times a year. It is clear you must not be able to read very well if you cannot see my point of view very well. Or you are just another official that thinks they know everything. Unlike you I know I did not have the best angle, you on the other hand know what happen. It was not like I was the only one either (I might have been first to say it, but not the only one).

Peace

[mu4scott]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If you are so worried about being belittled, then stop acting like everyone has to see what you see. For one it is clear to me you either do you have the experience of seeing this kind of play or you would accept that veterans have a take not only based on the tape, but their extensive experience. And the blurry part of the video and the angle I would not bet a game check there was contact or that the contact was significant or illegal. I have seen that play several times where no contact or little contact occurred and the shooter falls hard to the floor. If you do not want to buy that, then why do you still debate with me (and others) what we saw? You obviously know more than us. Remember I am not coming here to learn from you, I can see for myself and that is why I go to camps every year and several times a year. It is clear you must not be able to read very well if you cannot see my point of view very well. Or you are just another official that thinks they know everything. Unlike you I know I did not have the best angle, you on the other hand know what happen. It was not like I was the only one either (I might have been first to say it, but not the only one).

Peace

I guess breaking down tape is forcing everyone to "see what I see". I kind of thought it enhanced and furthered the discussion.

My bad.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by mu4scott

I guess breaking down tape is forcing everyone to "see what I see". I kind of thought it enhanced and furthered the discussion.

My bad.

Breaking down the tape does not change facts (you are not the only person that breaks down tape). And if you cannot see that, you have a really long way to go.

Peace

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Breaking down the tape does not change facts (you are not the only person that breaks down tape). And if you cannot see that, you have a really long way to go.

Peace

True enough, but show me someone who can jump up vertically and land horizontally without someone else touching them.

[mu4scott]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Breaking down the tape does not change facts (you are not the only person that breaks down tape). And if you cannot see that, you have a really long way to go.

Peace

Wow...

Breaking down tape helps to see things more clearly and thus decipher the facts. That's why I did so on this particulair play because there are such varied opinions.

I fully realize that I've not pionered the art of instant replay and the process of framing videos.

I'm trying to get to an NCAA Final Four so yes I'm very aware that I have a long way to go.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by mu4scott

Wow...

Breaking down tape helps to see things more clearly and thus decipher the facts. That's why I did so on this particulair play because there are such varied opinions.

Just so you know, people that break down tape extensively, do not always agree on the same things they see. Why is that you might ask yourself? Maybe the angle was not good on the tape. Maybe the people watching do not have the same judgment level. Maybe the people watching do not have the same experience level. Just maybe they simply disagree on what took place (there is a novel idea).

You sound like you want a cookie or an award because you broke down this play instead of taking in what others have to say and why they have to say it.

Originally Posted by mu4scott

I fully realize that I've not pionered the art of instant replay and the process of framing of videos.

I'm trying to get to an NCAA Final Four so yes I'm very aware that I have a long way to go.

You will never get the opportunity if the people that make those decisions feel you know more than what they know. And I am going to tell you that this play would likely be discussed on many levels and someone might actually disagree with your opinion.

I go to a lot of college camps and if I have learned anything from them, I know not nearly as much as they do and I know when to take in their advice even when I disagree with them instead of insisting that I am right, just because. If you disagree with my point of view on this situation that is your right to do so, I do not recall that your disagreeing with me is going to change my life any. And just because you show frame by frame does not change the fact that you cannot see how much contact, if there was contact or if there was contact by looking at someone’s back. You must be able to look between players to call this play one way or the other. And if there is an official in the best position, they had a better look than you or I did. And if you do not realize that, not much anyone can do to help you.

Peace

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

..... it is clear to me you either do you have the experience of seeing this kind of play.....

It is clear you must not be able to read very well if you cannot see my point of view very well.

That clears it up for all of us.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

True enough, but show me someone who can jump up vertically and land horizontally without someone else touching them.

Greg Louganis.