Question about more unwritten rules...

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Another viewpoint......

The first 3 items may not be that egregious if the correct call was being made at the same time. It may be more of a mechanics problem than a judgment problem. Maybe we should really be cringing at whoever was responsible for the training of that official, rather than the official making the call.

They just might not know if no one has ever told them.

Thoughts?

Note that the appropriate and recommended training method for #4 is a slap upside the head.

You know, there just might be some merit to that. I know personally I didn't go to a (good) camp for the first 6 or 7 years I officiated, so I know I had some bad habits that were pointed out to me. Notice I said "good" camp, because I was at one or two earlier, where all we did was sit in a classroom for an hour, essentially get told, "Here's the rules; go have fun!", and proceed to officiate using one-person mechanics because a number of officials didn't show up.

So, maybe some of these mechanics are a result of bad training, or no "real" training. I do cringe at some who I know have had good training, but continue to do things the wrong way.

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by dahoopref

A HS official (who just got into JC ball) asked me to watch his HS game and critique his performance.

During the game they had an "illegal screen" call and used the player control signal; they were in the bonus but did not shoot free throws. They realized their mistake too late for the correctable error.

I have seen these situations happen many times at college camps where I'm asked to observe. Some officials have that "switch" that they can turn on and off with HS rules and mechanics. Those who don't have that "switch" attend camps at their own dismay. When a situations like this happen, they looked confused and in shell-shock. An assignor will see this and will usually not hire them into a conference.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Mistake? You don't shoot FT's for team control fouls.

Good luck at finding a "switch" some day.

I read his original quote about 5 times before I realized he was making 2 separate comments, separated by a semicolon. The way he wrote it made it seem like it was one whole play, but I think he really was describing 2 distinct plays and just wrote it poorly. There was a team control foul with an incorrect mechanic and there was also a situation where a team was in the bonus but they forgot to give them free throws. But they were not the same play.

I am not agreeing or disagreeing with anything anyone said - just trying to clear up a very confusing post.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Smitty

I read his original quote about 5 times before I realized he was making 2 separate comments, separated by a semicolon. The way he wrote it made it seem like it was one whole play, but I think he really was describing 2 distinct plays and just wrote it poorly. There was a team control foul with an incorrect mechanic and there was also a situation where a team was in the bonus but they forgot to give them free throws. But they were not the same play.

I am not agreeing or disagreeing with anything anyone said - just trying to clear up a very confusing post.

Smitty, they were the same play. See post #27 by dahoopref. He very obviously did not know the penalty for a team control foul.

[Smitty]

You're right. That's what I get for trying to lead the blind...

Sorry for making an already confusing situation even more confusing.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Another viewpoint......

The first 3 items may not be that egregious if the correct call was being made at the same time. It may be more of a mechanics problem than a judgment problem. Maybe we should really be cringing at whoever was responsible for the training of that official, rather than the official making the call.

They just might not know if no one has ever told them.

Thoughts?

Note that the appropriate and recommended training method for #4 is a slap upside the head.

Agreed; on all counts. I cringe not because they're (the first three) definitive indicators of bad officiating; but because they tend to perpetuate misconceptions.

[TravelinMan]

Whoa! easy. I was just trying to think what the difference is between HS and college officials because the more experienced high school refs have strong mechanics, know the rules, have game management skills, do not have egos.

I have not worked any college games yet, but have worked with college officials in Greater Georgia association and have had nothing but good experiences and it was a pleasure to work with them.

My point was there is not too much difference between the experienced HS refs and college officials - as far as mechanics, knowing the rules, game management, strength in making calls. Quite a number of good HS refs do not want to work college. They want to be the best at the HS level.

[TravelinMan]

and by the way I didn't mean inflated ego......I didn't mean ego necessarily in a negative way...when you deal with a coach like Bobby Knight you might need something a little extra in ego.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Not a college ref, but I'll tell you the things that make me cringe.

1. Over the back calls.
2. Reaching fouls.
3. Traveling signals for throwin violation.
4. Fouls called from 75 feet away.

Note what's not in that list.

I do not know the implication you are trying to make, but I have seen these things from high school much more than I have ever seen them from college officials. Only one of these things I have ever seen from a college official.

Peace

[TravelinMan]

or now that I think of it...maybe you need LESS ego.....or more precisely not to let ego get in the way.....maybe that is the difference in college officials.

[JugglingReferee]

Everyone has an ego. The key is to relieve oneself of figjam as soon as possible, while maintaining the confidence to do the job required.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Everyone has an ego. The key is to relieve oneself of figjam as soon as possible, while maintaining the confidence to do the job required.

Some of the biggest egos I have seen have come from sophomore officials that never work varsity games.

Peace

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Some of the biggest egos I have seen have come from sophomore officials that never work varsity games.

I only hope that they're good sophomore officials!

[Brad]

Originally Posted by mu4scott

What things make you cringe?

The #1 in my book is fouls called on blocked shots and it's not even close.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

I only hope that they're good sophomore officials!

The funny thing about this off season was my first summer as a state clinician. And I was amazed how many times you had officials that cannot get single varsity game looked disinterested or acted is if they already knew everything when a clinician was talking to them. I attend 2 or 3 college camps every year and very few of the "college officials" in attendance (even the ones on D1 Staffs) listen to every word that they are being told and are willing to change the littlest thing to get better. And the officials have done little or nothing in officiating from an accomplishment point of view, they know everything or they want to debate what someone told them last week. It was even to the point where the assignors or people in charge of the camps I was working with would tell me to just to let these individuals be. When I hear that college officials have bigger egos or harder to work with, it makes me wonder is that more of the lack of confidence in those that have to work with people that work a level they have not achieved yet. I know I was guilty of that very early in my career.

Peace

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I do not know the implication you are trying to make, but I have seen these things from high school much more than I have ever seen them from college officials. Only one of these things I have ever seen from a college official.

Peace

Agreed. I'm guessing you saw the college official make the traveling signal on a throwin violation. I see and hear all the others from high school (especially JV) officials all the time. In the relatively few varsity games I've done, I really haven't seen them.

Exit question: Since I've now agreed with Jurassic and JRut in the same day on the same thread; does that mean you two agree on something?

Snaqwells, bringing people together