Question about more unwritten rules...

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by dahoopref

A HS official (who just got into JC ball) asked me to watch his HS game and critique his performance.

During the game they had an "illegal screen" call and used the player control signal; they were in the bonus but did not shoot free throws. They realized their mistake too late for the correctable error.

I have seen these situations happen many times at college camps where I'm asked to observe. Some officials have that "switch" that they can turn on and off with HS rules and mechanics. Those who don't have that "switch" attend camps at their own dismay. When a situations like this happen, they looked confused and in shell-shock. An assignor will see this and will usually not hire them into a conference.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Mistake? You don't shoot FT's for team control fouls.

Good luck at finding a "switch" some day.

I read his original quote about 5 times before I realized he was making 2 separate comments, separated by a semicolon. The way he wrote it made it seem like it was one whole play, but I think he really was describing 2 distinct plays and just wrote it poorly. There was a team control foul with an incorrect mechanic and there was also a situation where a team was in the bonus but they forgot to give them free throws. But they were not the same play.

I am not agreeing or disagreeing with anything anyone said - just trying to clear up a very confusing post.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Smitty

I read his original quote about 5 times before I realized he was making 2 separate comments, separated by a semicolon. The way he wrote it made it seem like it was one whole play, but I think he really was describing 2 distinct plays and just wrote it poorly. There was a team control foul with an incorrect mechanic and there was also a situation where a team was in the bonus but they forgot to give them free throws. But they were not the same play.

I am not agreeing or disagreeing with anything anyone said - just trying to clear up a very confusing post.

Smitty, they were the same play. See post #27 by dahoopref. He very obviously did not know the penalty for a team control foul.

[Smitty]

You're right. That's what I get for trying to lead the blind...

Sorry for making an already confusing situation even more confusing.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by mu4scott

This is kind of geared more towards the college officials. When you are watching high school officials work what things do you see that seperate NFHS and college officials? What things make you cringe?

ex. Non-pleated pants.
velcro shoes I've seen it.
certain jackets

Not a college ref, but I'll tell you the things that make me cringe.

1. Over the back calls.
2. Reaching fouls.
3. Traveling signals for throwin violation.
4. Fouls called from 75 feet away.

Note what's not in that list.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Not a college ref, but I'll tell you the things that make me cringe.

1. Over the back calls.
2. Reaching fouls.
3. Traveling signals for throwin violation.
4. Fouls called from 75 feet away.

Note what's not in that list.

Another viewpoint......

The first 3 items may not be that egregious if the correct call was being made at the same time. It may be more of a mechanics problem than a judgment problem. Maybe we should really be cringing at whoever was responsible for the training of that official, rather than the official making the call.

They just might not know if no one has ever told them.

Thoughts?

Note that the appropriate and recommended training method for #4 is a slap upside the head.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Another viewpoint......

The first 3 items may not be that egregious if the correct call was being made at the same time. It may be more of a mechanics problem than a judgment problem. Maybe we should really be cringing at whoever was responsible for the training of that official, rather than the official making the call.

They just might not know if no one has ever told them.

Thoughts?

Note that the appropriate and recommended training method for #4 is a slap upside the head.

You know, there just might be some merit to that. I know personally I didn't go to a (good) camp for the first 6 or 7 years I officiated, so I know I had some bad habits that were pointed out to me. Notice I said "good" camp, because I was at one or two earlier, where all we did was sit in a classroom for an hour, essentially get told, "Here's the rules; go have fun!", and proceed to officiate using one-person mechanics because a number of officials didn't show up.

So, maybe some of these mechanics are a result of bad training, or no "real" training. I do cringe at some who I know have had good training, but continue to do things the wrong way.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Another viewpoint......

The first 3 items may not be that egregious if the correct call was being made at the same time. It may be more of a mechanics problem than a judgment problem. Maybe we should really be cringing at whoever was responsible for the training of that official, rather than the official making the call.

They just might not know if no one has ever told them.

Thoughts?

Note that the appropriate and recommended training method for #4 is a slap upside the head.

Agreed; on all counts. I cringe not because they're (the first three) definitive indicators of bad officiating; but because they tend to perpetuate misconceptions.

[TravelinMan]

Whoa! easy. I was just trying to think what the difference is between HS and college officials because the more experienced high school refs have strong mechanics, know the rules, have game management skills, do not have egos.

I have not worked any college games yet, but have worked with college officials in Greater Georgia association and have had nothing but good experiences and it was a pleasure to work with them.

My point was there is not too much difference between the experienced HS refs and college officials - as far as mechanics, knowing the rules, game management, strength in making calls. Quite a number of good HS refs do not want to work college. They want to be the best at the HS level.

[Indianaref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Not a college ref, but I'll tell you the things that make me cringe.

1. Over the back calls.
2. Reaching fouls.
3. Traveling signals for throwin violation.
4. Fouls called from 75 feet away.

Note what's not in that list.

An official erroneously granting a time-out?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Not a college ref, but I'll tell you the things that make me cringe.

1. Over the back calls.
2. Reaching fouls.
3. Traveling signals for throwin violation.
4. Fouls called from 75 feet away.

Note what's not in that list.

I do not know the implication you are trying to make, but I have seen these things from high school much more than I have ever seen them from college officials. Only one of these things I have ever seen from a college official.

Peace

[TravelinMan]

or now that I think of it...maybe you need LESS ego.....or more precisely not to let ego get in the way.....maybe that is the difference in college officials.

[JugglingReferee]

Everyone has an ego. The key is to relieve oneself of figjam as soon as possible, while maintaining the confidence to do the job required.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Everyone has an ego. The key is to relieve oneself of figjam as soon as possible, while maintaining the confidence to do the job required.

Some of the biggest egos I have seen have come from sophomore officials that never work varsity games.

Peace

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I do not know the implication you are trying to make, but I have seen these things from high school much more than I have ever seen them from college officials. Only one of these things I have ever seen from a college official.

Peace

Agreed. I'm guessing you saw the college official make the traveling signal on a throwin violation. I see and hear all the others from high school (especially JV) officials all the time. In the relatively few varsity games I've done, I really haven't seen them.

Exit question: Since I've now agreed with Jurassic and JRut in the same day on the same thread; does that mean you two agree on something?

Snaqwells, bringing people together

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Agreed. I'm guessing you saw the college official make the traveling signal on a throwin violation. I see and hear all the others from high school (especially JV) officials all the time. In the relatively few varsity games I've done, I really haven't seen them.

Exit question: Since I've now agreed with Jurassic and JRut in the same day on the same thread; does that mean you two agree on something?

Snaqwells, bringing people together

You matchmaker, you.