Rules Question

[stevesmith]

Okay, for my rules experts out there.....

Team B called for a hold with possession, flag down. Team A then taunts, whistle blows and Team A is assessed a one-minute non-release unsportsmanlike conduct.

If Team A is able to regain possession and score while Team B player is still serving his 30 seconds, is the Team B player released, or does he have to serve the full 30 seconds because of Teams A's foul also? Does it make a difference is Team A's foul is releasable?

[RILAX]

What you have is Simultaneous Fouls as defined in 7-6:

“Simultaneous fouls are fouls called on players of opposing teams during a live ball [,] or dead ball when sequence cannot be determined.”

The [] indicate portions I have added for clarity.

Then Art. 1 of the same section says:

During a slow whistle …, any foul committed by the team in possession … shall result in an immediate whistle.

So kill the play when “A” commits a foul.

Next Art. 2 of the same section:

“Penalty time:
…
b. If the team if possession….commits:
…
(b) Any personal foul, all players involved will serve penalty time.”


So both B and A serve penalty time.


Finally Art. 3:

“Award the ball:
a. When penalty time is awarded and one team incurs less total penalty time that its opponent, that team shall be awarded the ball.”

So team B gets the ball (30 seconds vs. 1 minute)

Now 7-3-Exception states:

“For live-ball simultaneous fouls where team is to be served by each team, the ball will be put in play at the spot where the ball was when the whistle blew or outside the goal area.”

So B will not get a free clear if the foul was on their defensive half of the field.

Now 7-2-4 has some special rules about the matching time being locked in:

For the purpose of determining when a player or players may be released from a penalty, for all time-serving penalties called on players of opposing teams from the time the flag is dropped or the whistle sounds stopping play (whichever occurs first), until the sounding of the whistle resuming play, the lesser amount of penalty time shall be treated
as non-releasable. When two or more players from opposing teams are sent out of the game, and the penalty time for each player is the same, the players shall not be released from the special-substitution area until their full penalty
time has been served. If the penalty time of a player(s) on one team is longer than the penalty time of a player(s) on the other team, then no one shall be released from the special-substitution area until the shorter penalty time has elapsed. At that time, the player(s) with the shorter penalty time shall be released from the special-substitution area; but the other player(s) shall remain until such time as his penalty time has elapsed, or his team has been scored upon.

(got this part from the NCAA pdf so there may be some minor differences)


Basically this says that since both A1 and B1 serve at least 30-seconds those portions of the penalty time is locked in.

Also case book 7.6 Sit A:

On simultaneous fouls, A1 gets 30 seconds and B1 gets one minute. Twenty seconds after play is resumed, B2 scores a goal. Is A1 released from special-substitution area? RULING: No. On simultaneous fouls, any goal scored during the shorter penalty time has no bearing in releasing players from special-substitution area.

So B1 in 7.6.A (which is A1 in your example) would have to wait until the matching time is over until a goal can release his releasable time (in your case he has none because on the natural state of an USC foul.) Now if A1 in your example slashed instead of committing and USC foul and B scored a goal in the second 30-seconds of his penalty it would be released.

Also be aware that total time in 7-6-3-a is not the same as matching time in 7-2-4. For example if A1 has the ball and B1 pushes him, then B2 holds him, A1 passes the ball to A2, and finally A1 slashes B2 the following would happen (besides this run-on sentence). The total penalty time by B is 1 minute (30 s + 30 s) and the total penalty time by A is 1 minute. So you would go to 7-6-3-b-1 that states: “If a team has possession … at the time of the flag or whistle, that team shall retain possession.”

Edit:
Now the longest penalty time served a player on A and a player on B is 30s so only the first 30s of A1’s penalty is locked-in under 7-2-4.
End of edit.

Finally be aware that 7-2-4 take into consideration of the dead ball following the live ball. So B1 slashes, then the ball goes dead, then A1 delays the game and then gets a conduct foul. This is what would happen: B1 would serve a 1-minute penalty and A would have the ball, but then because of the delay of game B would get the ball, then because of the conduct foul A1 would serve a 30-sec tech. Since both A1 and B1’s penalties occurred since the time the flag is dropped or the whistle sounds stopping play (whichever occurs first), until the sounding of the whistle resuming play the matching time would be locked in under 7-2-4.

Easy right?

Seriously if you have questions let me know. I still find this the hardest part of the rulebook to understand.


[Edited by RILAX on Mar 25th, 2004 at 11:51 AM]

[Snake~eyes]

I didn't read all of what Rilax wrote but both penalties are nonreleaseable, that's the short answer, just read Rilax's post to learn why its that way. lol I do agree with you though that this is one of the hardest parts to understand, just takes a couple readings of the rules and the case plays.

[RILAX]

Originally posted by Snake~eyes
I didn't read all of what Rilax wrote

why it is only about 1 and 2/3 pages long when pasted into a word document...

[stevesmith]

RILAX, thanks for your efforts in researching this.
Snake-eyes, thanks for your response.

I either know the rules better than I thought, or I got lucky, but I actually enforced this correctly! I obviously caught a lot of grief from the coach who didn't know any better, but my partner was also questioning me, which made me wonder. I was able to find time this morning to read the rulebook for a few minutes and did find some of the same paragraphs as RILAX, so I was feeling better. Having both of you confirm this convinces me I was right...at least this time.

[RILAX]

relized that there was a small problem in my long post, notice the edit.

[Snake~eyes]

Originally posted by RILAX

why it is only about 1 and 2/3 pages long when pasted into a word document...

Because I had to get to a game.

[RILAX]

Originally posted by Snake~eyes

Because I had to get to a game.

can't complaine with that

[Ballen]

Good job everybody. Rilax, I admire your dedication. You make this forum valuable and professional.
Snake-eyes, you make it understandable.

We're on spring break here and no games are scheduled. So I've booked a basketball tourney to get some work.

Read you later! I'm skipping over to the b-ball forum.