LGP on Airborne Shooter

[Camron Rust]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Play D: A1 stops his dribble and jumps toward B1 but at an angle that will enable him to go past B1 if B1 either does not move or moves directly backward along A1's path before A1 went airborne. BUT, B1 moves to maintain his legal guarding position against A1. B1 is moving when A1 makes contact with B1's torso. B1 was NOT moving toward A1 when the contact occured. RULING: Based upon the definition of guarding and Plays A, B, and C, the only logical conclusion is a foul by A1.

Here is the problem with that logic....when A1 jumped in a direction where B1 was not in his/her path, B1 LOST LGP....B1 has to obtain a new LGP....and since A1 is airborne, B1 can not obtain a LGP.

[rwest]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Quote:


Here is the problem with that logic....when A1 jumped in a direction where B1 was not in his/her path, B1 LOST LGP....B1 has to obtain a new LGP....and since A1 is airborne, B1 can not obtain a LGP.

Are you saying that anytime an offensive player changes direction, that the defender has lost LGP? If so, I don't agree. If A1 has the ball and B1 has OBTAINED LGP, when A1 moves to go around B1, B1 can move to maintain LGP. B1 does not have to regain LGP. If B1 has to re-establish LGP, then in very few instances can he move to maintain it. Remember, to obtain LGP you only have to have 2 feet on the floor facing the opponent. If A1 moves at an angle to get around B1, B1 is still facing A1. He hasn't lost anything.

[jkjenning]

Originally Posted by rwest

Are you saying that anytime an offensive player changes direction, that the defender has lost LGP? If so, I don't agree. If A1 has the ball and B1 has OBTAINED LGP, when A1 moves to go around B1, B1 can move to maintain LGP. B1 does not have to regain LGP. If B1 has to re-establish LGP, then in very few instances can he move to maintain it. Remember, to obtain LGP you only have to have 2 feet on the floor facing the opponent. If A1 moves at an angle to get around B1, B1 is still facing A1. He hasn't lost anything.

Everything changes when a player goes airborne - it is horrible to think that B1 would be allowed to undercut an airborne player who would otherwise miss him/her and the foul would go against the airborne player? That is completely insane and twists the rules to an unfair advantage for the defender, placing the ball handler at a tremendously unfair and dangerous disadvantage... no way!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by rwest

Are you saying that anytime an offensive player changes direction, that the defender has lost LGP? If so, I don't agree.

Are you serious?

Camron is telling you that if a defender is no longer in the PATH of the offensive player after that player has changed direction, then that defender has LOST a legal guarding position. That's completely true and always has been. And you disagree with that?

The definition of "GUARDING" in rule 4-23-1 says that it is "the act of legally placing the body in the PATH of an offensive opponent." The defender can move then laterally or obliquely to MAINTAIN their position in the PATH of the offensive opponent, as long as the opponent isn't airborne. However, if you CAN'T maintain a legal guarding position in the PATH of an offensive opponent, then you have LOST that legal guarding position. That's true for ALL situations. Once you lose LGP, you have to establish it all over again. And the rules won't allow you to ESTABLISH a new legal guarding position on an airborne opponent.

Those are basic guarding principles..

[rwest]

Originally Posted by jkjenning

Everything changes when a player goes airborne - it is horrible to think that B1 would be allowed to undercut an airborne player who would otherwise miss him/her and the foul would go against the airborne player? That is completely insane and twists the rules to an unfair advantage for the defender, placing the ball handler at a tremendously unfair and dangerous disadvantage... no way!

But what about a offensive player on the ground? You'll not find anywhere in the rule book (at least not to my memory) the phrase "re-establish" LGP. I agree that we have to call this a block for the same reasons you mentioned. We have to give the offensive player a place to land. Its a safety concern. We have other rules that protect an Air Borne shooter. We make it a shooting foul if he his fouled while still in the air but has released the ball. We don't give a player on the floor the same protection. This is just another one of those areas where we give protection to the offensive player.

We all agree that this is a block, except Mark and he is going to want to see this in black and white. He needs a rule reference. Which we haven't given him. We've given rule references regarding movement to obtain LGP. However, we've yet to give him a rule reference regarding maintaining LGP. Big difference!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by rwest

We all agree that this is a block, except Mark and he is going to want to see this in black and white. He needs a rule reference. Which we haven't given him. We've given rule references regarding movement to obtain LGP. However, we've yet to give him a rule reference regarding maintaining LGP. Big difference!

How many times in this thread does case book play 10.6.1SitC have to be cited? You know? The one that states that B1 is entitled to the position obtained legally BEFORE A1 left the floor, but....."However if B1 moves into the path of A1 AFTER A1 has left the floor, the foul is on B1."

[rwest]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

How many times in this thread does case book play 10.6.1SitC have to be cited? You know? The one that states that B1 is entitled to the position obtained legally BEFORE A1 left the floor, but....."However if B1 moves into the path of A1 AFTER A1 has left the floor, the foul is on B1."

That got lost in the noise. It was so far up in the thread I had to go back and look at it. I agree with you that it is a block. I've never said otherwise.

[rwest]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Are you serious?

Camron is telling you that if a defender is no longer in the PATH of the offensive player after that player has changed direction, then that defender has LOST a legal guarding position. That's completely true and always has been. And you disagree with that?

The definition of "GUARDING" in rule 4-23-1 says that it is "the act of legally placing the body in the PATH of an offensive opponent." The defender can move then laterally or obliquely to MAINTAIN their position in the PATH of the offensive opponent, as long as the opponent isn't airborne. However, if you CAN'T maintain a legal guarding position in the PATH of an offensive opponent, then you have LOST that legal guarding position. That's true for ALL situations. Once you lose LGP, you have to establish it all over again. And the rules won't allow you to ESTABLISH a new legal guarding position on an airborne opponent.

Those are basic guarding principles..

To OBTAIN LGP you have to have two feet on the floor facing the player, however when you move obliquely to MAINTAIN LGP are you still in their path?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by rwest

To OBTAIN LGP you have to have two feet on the floor facing the player, however when you move obliquely to MAINTAIN LGP are you still in their path?

You don't have to have ANY feet on the floor to maintain a LGP. That's only a prerequisite to initially obtaining a LGP. However, to maintain a LGP you do have to constantly stay in your opponent's path. If an opponent changes direction, the official then has to judge whether the defender was able to constantly stay in that opponent's path. Judgment call iow. Once you're judged to be out of that opponent's path, buh-bye LGP. And if that opponent becomes airborne and you're not in their path when they did so, you can't possibly have a LGP. The defender now has to obtain a new LGP all over again. And the rules won't allow any defender to obtain a new LGP after their opponent goes airborne. That's what Mark seems to be unable to comprehend.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by rwest

Are you saying that anytime an offensive player changes direction, that the defender has lost LGP? If so, I don't agree.

No....there are some direction changes that cause the defender to lose LGP....those where the defender is, at some point in time, in a position where there would be no contact if A1 were to continue in the established direction.

Originally Posted by rwest

If A1 has the ball and B1 has OBTAINED LGP, when A1 moves to go around B1, B1 can move to maintain LGP. B1 does not have to regain LGP.

True, IF B1 actually does maintain it...by staying constantly in the path of A1. If at any time A1's path doesn't not go through B1, B1 has lost LGP...they can reobtain it very easily, however....but they can't do it with A1 airborne.

Originally Posted by rwest

If B1 has to re-establish LGP, then in very few instances can he move to maintain it. Remember, to obtain LGP you only have to have 2 feet on the floor facing the opponent. If A1 moves at an angle to get around B1, B1 is still facing A1. He hasn't lost anything.

If A1 cuts such that B1 is no longer in his path, B1 must again get into the path with 2 feet down and facing A1. B1, after falling out of A1's path, can't turn sideways, run into the path and take the contact on the side.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

True, IF B1 actually does maintain it...by staying constantly in the path of A1. If at any time A1's path doesn't not go through B1, B1 has lost LGP...they can reobtain it very easily, however....but they can't do it with A1 airborne.

'Zackly! And that's what MTD Sr. fails to comprehend.

[BillyMac]

10.6.1 SITUATION C: B1 is standing behind the plane of the backboard before A1 jumps for a lay-up shot. The forward momentum causes airborne shooter A1 to charge into B1. RULING: B1 is entitled to the position obtained legally before A1 left the floor. If the ball goes through the basket before or after the contact occurs, the player control foul cancels the score. However, if B1 moves into the path of A1 after A1 has left the floor, the foul is on B1. B1's foul on the airborne shooter is a foul during the act of shooting. If the shot is successful, one free throw is awarded and if it is unsuccessful, two free throws result. (4-19-1, 6-6-7-4, 10 PENALTY2 5a)

10-6-3-Note: When a guard moves into the path of a dribbler and contact occurs, either player may be responsible for the contact, but the greater responsibility is that of the dribbler if the guard conforms to the following principles, which officials use in reaching a decision. The guard is assumed to have obtained a guarding position if he/she is in the dribbler's path facing him/her. If he/she jumps into position, both feet must return to the floor after the jump before he/she has obtained a guarding position. No specific stance or distance is required. It is assumed the guard may shift to maintain his/her position in the path of the dribbler, provided he/she does not charge into the dribbler nor otherwise cause contact, as outlined in 10-6-2. The responsibility of the dribbler for contact is not shifted merely because the guard turns or ducks to absorb shock when contact by the dribbler is imminent. The guard may not cause contact by moving under or in front of a passer or thrower after he or she is in the air with both feet off the floor.

Peter Webb: "I have received a couple of notes indicating that a defender can obtain a legal guarding position after an opponent has become airborne. Obviously the rule does not permit that."

From many of the posts in this thread, especially those from Jurassic Referee, and from the citations listed above, in my opinion, the defender cannot obtain a legal guarding position after the offensive player has become airborne, however, I would like the following clarified:

Let's say a defender obtains a legal guarding position before the offensive player has become airborne. Right before contact occurs, the defender not only turns, or ducks, as stated in 10-6-3-Note above, but actually backs up a step to absorb contact.

I'm still calling this a player control foul. Am I correct? Citations please.

Also, for new Forum members, Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. can usually be counted on for reliable information on this Forum. He is just having some type of mental block regarding this situation, so lets' give him a "mulligan" on this thread. I believe he has earned it based on 99% of his previous posts.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Let's say a defender obtains a legal guarding position before the offensive player has become airborne. Right before contact occurs, the defender not only turns, or ducks, as stated in 10-6-3-Note above, but actually backs up a step to absorb contact.

I'm still calling this a player control foul. Am I correct? Citations please.

If the defender is in the path of the offensive player, then moves away from the airborne player, yet contact still occurs, obviously he is still in the path. 10-6-7

[JugglingReferee]

So...

In the other thread started by wanja that mentions some NBA sites with ref's pictures (http://forum.officiating.com/showthread.php?p=519403), there is a link to http://phillyref.com/basketball/nbarefs/nbarefs.html.

In this thread, BBR and Nevada discuss the legality of posting rules online. The PhillyRef site links to http://www.mtboa.org, which has some videos meant for instructional use, presumably for beginning officials. One of those videos, the first one listed, discusses the block/charge/screen. The first discussion point in this video is LGP, and the discussor eventually gets into the defense being allowed to move, and also discusses the airborne A1 and B1 moving over laterally, trying to maintain LGP. This is seen at 1:30 into the video.

Even this guy says it's a block! And he claims to be only refereeing for 3 years.

[ref2coach]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Even this guy says it's a block! And he claims to be only refereeing for 3 years.

The 3 year commit is very "Tongue in cheek". The man in the video has worked at the State tournament level. He also works in the land of "college and above"

The video was made during the 2007 State sponsored camp. The camps serve two purposes in our State. 1) You must attend a camp once every 3 years to work any Varsity tournament game in the State. 2) Most associations require that an official attend camp before being moved to the "Varsity" roster.