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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jun 15, 2008, 01:31am
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LGP on Airborne Shooter

This is a play situation posted on the NFHS forum.....

Play: A1 with the ball leaves his feet to attempt a shot. Defender B1, who had a legal guarding position on A1 before A1 left his feet, now moves laterally(sideways) into the path of airborne A1 after A1 became airborne. Note that B1 does NOT move forward towards airborne A1, just laterally. If contact occurs, who should the foul be called on?

I posted this play because a nameless poster over there(Mark T. DeNucci Sr.) insists that a defender can legally move laterally into the path of an airborne shooter AFTER the shooter became airborne and still maintain a legal guarding position. Iow, if the defender does move laterally into the path of an airborne shooter after the shooter became airborne, it's a player control foul if contact occurs.

Note that the following case play was also cited:
10.6.1 SITUATION C: B1 is standing behind the plane of the backboard before A1 jumps for a lay-up shot. The forward momentum causes airborne shooter A1 to charge into B1.
RULING: B1 is entitled to the position obtained legally before A1 left the floor. If the ball goes through the basket before or after the contact occurs, the player control foul cancels the score. However, if B1 moves into the path of A1 after A1 has left the floor, the foul is on B1. B1's foul on the airborne shooter is a foul during the act of shooting. If the shot is successful, one free throw is awarded and if it is unsuccessful, two free throws result. (4-19-1, 6-6-7-4, 10 PENALTY2 5a)


Again, can a defender who has established a LGP before a shooter became airborne now legally move laterally into the path of that shooter after the shooter became airborne?

Thoughts?
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jun 15, 2008, 01:33am
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This is very simple, a defender cannot move laterally into an airborne shooter's path. You listed the caseplay, so not sure what else I can say about this, other than that I agree with you.
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  #3 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jun 15, 2008, 03:58am
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I'm giving the airborne shooter a place to land.

I don't care if the "defender" ran from BEHIND the airborne shooter, and somehow got in front of the shooter before he landed...I've got a block.

Laterally, forward, backwards, on all fours or upside down...if the defender was not at the spot of the landing BEFORE the shooter became airborne...I've got a block.

Is someone really debating this?
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Old Sun Jun 15, 2008, 04:43am
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Block!!! On B1 shoot two if missed and one if successful. No! B1 cannot move into the path of A1 after leaving the floor.
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  #5 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jun 15, 2008, 05:41am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RookieDude
Is someone really debating this?
A coupla "someones" actually.

One of them(nameless--MTD Sr.) posted a 10,000+ word diatribe explaining his position. He also posted a Coles Notes version that I'll reproduce here(the other one would take a half hour just to cut and paste):
"Read articles 3 and 4 of NFHS rule R4-S23. Nothing in those two articles prohibits a defender, B1, from moving to maintain a legal guarding position against an airborne player, A1, as long as the B1's LGP was obtained before A1 became airborne and if contact occurs, B1 was not moving towards A1."
Iow, it's completely legal for a defender to move into the path of an airborne shooter if such defender had LGP before the shooter went airborne and doesn't move towards the shooter.

Thoughts?

That's why I posted it here.....to get as many opinions as possible. There's a lot more people reading this forum than t'other one, and there's also certainly a bunch of very knowledgeable officials posting here.

PS- from NCAA AR66(MENS):
B1 is standing under the basket before A1 jumps for a layup. The forward motion of A1 causes contact with B1.
RULING: B1 is entitled to the position provided that there was NO movement INTO such position AFTER B1 leaped from the floor."

The NCAA Womens philosophy is the same, with slightly different penalties.

Last edited by Jurassic Referee; Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 06:34am.
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  #6 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jun 15, 2008, 09:02am
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It was bullsh!t when MTD posted it on the NFHS board and it's still bullsh!t.
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Old Sun Jun 15, 2008, 09:21am
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The Ransom Of Red Chief ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
This is a play situation posted on the NFHS forum.....can a defender who has established a LGP before a shooter became airborne now legally move laterally into the path of that shooter after the shooter became airborne? Thoughts?
Asking for input instead of giving experienced advice? Polite language in the post? What have you done with the real Jurassic Referee and how much ransom do we have to pay for you to keep him?

Seriously, I think 10.6.1 SITUATION C says it all. I can't believe that MTD Sr. is having trouble with this situation. His posts, on this Forum, and on the NFHS forum are usually right on target, and I consider him to be a reliable source of information.

Wait a minute. Maybe someone has kidnapped MTD Sr. and is posting in his name. Old School, what have you done with MTD Sr. and what do we have to do to get the real MTD Sr. back?

Happy Father's Day everybody.


Last edited by BillyMac; Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 09:26am.
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Old Sun Jun 15, 2008, 09:40am
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J Dallas Shirley must be spinning in his grave.

Block.
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  #9 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jun 15, 2008, 09:41am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac
Asking for input instead of giving experienced advice? Polite language in the post? What have you done with the real Jurassic Referee and how much ransom do we have to pay for you to keep him?

I can't believe that MTD Sr. is having trouble with this situation. His posts, on this Forum, and on the NFHS forum are usually right on target, and I consider him to be a reliable source of information.
Billy, this isn't one of the esoteric, once-in-a-million-years plays that we sometimes argue to death here. This is a standard, basic call that happens every single game. It's a basic rules concept imo too. I think it's worthwhile to just present the play and have a discussion on it. And one of the reasons that I thought it was worthwhile was the fact that Mark is usually a fairly reliable source of information. I'm trying to give him(or anyone else who agrees with him) every chance available to explain their reasoning.
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  #10 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jun 15, 2008, 09:44am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac
Seriously, I think 10.6.1 SITUATION C says it all. I can't believe that MTD Sr. is having trouble with this situation. His posts, on this Forum, and on the NFHS forum are usually right on target, and I consider him to be a reliable source of information.
Must be playing devil's advocate and trying to get what he sees as weak wording changed in the rules. No one could seriously argue that an airborne shooter be required to avoid a player who was not there before they went airborne... huge disadvantage for the shooter otherwise.
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  #11 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jun 15, 2008, 10:00am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MTD on the other board
Of course the thing to remember is that in 37 years of officiating basketball I have never seen a defender move the correct way to maintain a LGP once his opponent became airborne. It is my opinion that the ability of the brain to process the information and so that the defender can move per the rules just ain't there.

I think I speak for us all when I say "HUH?" It could be worse. That bigseth guy could follow us over here.
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Old Sun Jun 15, 2008, 10:19am
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I'll Be Here All Week Folks ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref
It could be worse. That bigseth guy could follow us over here.
We could leave a trail of breadcrumbs. Then the birds would eat them and ... Wait. That's Hansel and Gretel, not bigseth and Gretel. As Emily used to say, "Never mind".
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  #13 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jun 15, 2008, 10:37am
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Woody:

I did not post a diatribe on the NFHS Board. I admitted up front that my post would be long. I quoted the complete NFHS and NCAA definitions for guarding.


Tony:

I am suprised at your language.


Moving on:

Read Articles 3 and 4 of NFHS R4-S23. Nothing in those two articles prohibits a defender, B1, from moving to maintain a legal guarding position against an airborne player, A1, as long as the B1's LGP was obtained before A1 became airborne and if contact occurs, B1 was not moving toward A1 when contacts occur.

I NEVER (with apologies to the late J. Dallas Shirley) said that a defender can jump in front of an offensive player any time and it will NEVER be a blocking foul. If B1 does not have a LGP against A1 before A1 became airborne then, OF COURSE, B1 is guilty of a blocking foul if B1 takes a position in front of A1 while A1 is airborne and contact occurs while A1 is airborne.

Below are the four plays (Play D is the play that is causing all of the hand wringing, but I posted the plays in a specific order to lay the foundation for why the rules support a ruling of a foul against A1 in Play D.) that I posted on the NFHS Forum:

Lets see what type of foul occurs when B1 has obtained/established a legal guarding position against A1 (who has player control of the ball) and A1 dribbles the ball directly toward B1.

Play A: A1 dribbles toward B1 while B1 is standing in front of A1. A1, makes contact with the front of B1's torso. RULING: Foul by A1.

Play B: A1 stops his dribble and jumps directly toward B1 while B1 is standing in front of A1. A1, while airborne, makes contact with the front of B1's torso. RULING: Foul by A1.

Play C: A1 dribbles toward B1 but changes direction so as to go around B1. B1 moves to maintain his legal guarding position against A1. B1 is moving when A1 makes contact with B1's torso. B1 was NOT moving obliquely into A1 when the contact occured. RULING: Foul by A1.

Play D: A1 stops his dribble and jumps toward B1 but at an angle that will enable him to go past B1 if B1 either does not move or moves directly backward along A1's path before A1 went airborne. BUT, B1 moves to maintain his legal guarding position against A1. B1 is moving when A1 makes contact with B1's torso. B1 was NOT moving toward A1 when the contact occured. RULING: Based upon the definition of guarding and Plays A, B, and C, the only logical conclusion is a foul by A1.

The specific NFHS (NCAA and FIBA rules agree) rule citations are:

NFHS R4-S23-A3c: After the initial legal guarding position is obtained the guard may move laterally or obliquely to maintain position, provided it is not toward the opponent when contact occurs.

NFHS R4-S23-A4b: Guarding an opponent with the ball or a stationary opponent without
the ball: If the opponent with the ball is airborne, the guard must have obtained legal
position before the opponent left the floor.

Article 3c makes no distinction between an offensive player who is airborne or NON-airborne when the defender is MOVING TO MAINTAIN a LGP. It does state that if the defender is moving TOWARD the offensive player, the defender is responsible for contact that occurs.

Article 4b states that a defender must OBTAIN his LGP before the offensive player becomes airborne.

There are only two questions that the official must ask and answer:

1) Did the defensive player obtain a LGP before the offensive player became airborne?

If the asnwer to (1) is YES, then the official must ask the next question:

2) Was the defensive player moving TOWARD the airborne offensive player when contact occurs?

If the asnwer to (2) is YES, then the defensive player is responsible for the contact. If the answer to (2) is NO, then the offensive player for the contact.

Everybody is applying a rule (NFHS R4-S23-A5) that applies to a defensive player who has NOT obtained a LGP to a play where the defensive player has ALREADY obtained a LGP.

MTD, Sr.
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  #14 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jun 15, 2008, 10:40am
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The rule may be poorly worded (although, if you look closely, it says "legal position" must be obtained before A1 goes airborne, not LGP), but the casebook play that Jurassic posted is plain as day. I don't see how anyone could argue this.
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Old Sun Jun 15, 2008, 11:07am
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Lets tweak Play B just a bit:

Play B-1: A1 stops his dribble and jumps directly toward B1 while B1 is standing in front of A1. After A1 becomes airborne B1 moves backwards in the same path as A1's leap. A1, while airborne, makes contact with the front of B1's torso. RULING: Foul by A1.

B1 is moving to maintain a LGP against A1. He is NOT moving TOWARD A1 when contact occurs. This is still a foul by A1.

MTD, Sr.
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